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Sep 9 2021 06:46pm
Quote (IceMage @ Sep 9 2021 08:38pm)
OSHA exists. You may not like the power it has, but Congress gave it that power. A new rule protecting the workplace from obstinate, lunatic antivaxxers is reasonable in the midst of a once-in-a-century pandemic. It's not a rule that requires people to have surgery to alter their reproductive capabilities... it's a rule that requires people to get a shot or two of a safe vaccine, if they wish to remain employed by the federal government or certain businesses. I think reasonable people can understand the difference between the two.


Also... for the businesses, it's requiring employees to get vaccinated or have a negative test once a week. So if businesses choose, they can continue to employ obstinate, lunatic antivaxxers... they'll just have to make sure they are tested once a week.
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Sep 9 2021 06:49pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Sep 9 2021 04:44pm)
Children are children, adults are adults.

If you think the government needs to treat adults as children, that's ok, but it really brings into question why you believe these children are capable of electing people to represent them. Shouldn't we just let the government decide who runs what?


I don't think it needs to be so black and white. We live in a representative democracy and we allow our government to make these type of decisions for us.
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Sep 9 2021 06:52pm
Quote (IceMage @ Sep 9 2021 07:38pm)
OSHA exists. You may not like the power it has, but Congress gave it that power. A new rule protecting the workplace from obstinate, lunatic antivaxxers is reasonable in the midst of a once-in-a-century pandemic. It's not a rule that requires people to have surgery to alter their reproductive capabilities... it's a rule that requires people to get a shot or two of a safe vaccine, if they wish to remain employed by the federal government or certain businesses. I think reasonable people can understand the difference between the two.


Congress never gave OSHA the power to set social policy or enforce health decisions for all Americans, they gave it the power to set temporary standards to protect workers from emergent radioactive spills and industrial biohazards that become newly discovered in the 6 months pending new, permanent regulations. And now Biden is trying to do that thing executives do whenever they make blatant overreaches they know will eventually get struck down in the courts- he's citing some statute which only tangentially references the power he's claiming and is very obviously neither intended nor applicable to this kind of permanent, nation-wide social policy.
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Sep 9 2021 06:58pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Sep 9 2021 04:56pm)
It's not about being agree or not, it simply causing deaths but it's technically very hard to evaluate the level of responsability.
Forced labour should be fine.

Prove that anti-vaccination rhetoric is "misinformation".

And once you have done that impossible task, try and tell us what you would do to those who purportedly spread "misinformation". Go on. Don't be coy.
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Sep 9 2021 06:59pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 9 2021 05:52pm)
Congress never gave OSHA the power to set social policy or enforce health decisions for all Americans, they gave it the power to set temporary standards to protect workers from emergent radioactive spills and industrial biohazards that become newly discovered in the 6 months pending new, permanent regulations. And now Biden is trying to do that thing executives do whenever they make blatant overreaches they know will eventually get struck down in the courts- he's citing some statute which only tangentially references the power he's claiming and is very obviously neither intended nor applicable to this kind of permanent, nation-wide social policy.


I would consider COVID an industrial biohazard.

Do you want to make a fg bet on the ultimate outcome?
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Sep 9 2021 07:04pm
Quote (IceMage @ Sep 9 2021 08:22pm)
The government has an interest in using levers of power to influence the behavior of adults who act like children, both for their own benefit, and for the benefit of society at large. Move to Somalia if you don't want to face consequences for being unvaccinated during a pandemic that has killed 650,000 Americans.


Quote (IceMage @ Sep 9 2021 08:38pm)
OSHA exists. You may not like the power it has, but Congress gave it that power. A new rule protecting the workplace from obstinate, lunatic antivaxxers is reasonable in the midst of a once-in-a-century pandemic. It's not a rule that requires people to have surgery to alter their reproductive capabilities... it's a rule that requires people to get a shot or two of a safe vaccine, if they wish to remain employed by the federal government or certain businesses. I think reasonable people can understand the difference between the two.


Then it should go without saying that the government should accept liability for the result. If the government wants you to vaccinate, and you do happen to die, it's fair to expect that the government provides an appropriate settlement. We can let the economists debate what the exact figure should be. But we can't have a situation where the government controls the decision and forces the liability onto citizens.

Quote (thundercock @ Sep 9 2021 08:49pm)
I don't think it needs to be so black and white. We live in a representative democracy and we allow our government to make these type of decisions for us.


So do the Australians, and yet I don't think that empowering authorities to police beer consumption is a productive way to organize society. There are consequences to infantilizing adults. Whether this is legal or not will be for the courts to decide, but we should exercise caution, because we aren't going to be able to go back from this.
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Sep 9 2021 07:06pm
Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 9 2021 08:52pm)
Congress never gave OSHA the power to set social policy or enforce health decisions for all Americans, they gave it the power to set temporary standards to protect workers from emergent radioactive spills and industrial biohazards that become newly discovered in the 6 months pending new, permanent regulations. And now Biden is trying to do that thing executives do whenever they make blatant overreaches they know will eventually get struck down in the courts- he's citing some statute which only tangentially references the power he's claiming and is very obviously neither intended nor applicable to this kind of permanent, nation-wide social policy.


We'll find out. Whether it gets struck down or not, I appreciate the effort by a president to try to get a deadly pandemic under control, especially considering it's mostly killing his political opposition. Very unifying IMO.
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Sep 9 2021 07:10pm
Quote (thundercock @ Sep 9 2021 07:59pm)
I would consider COVID an industrial biohazard.

Do you want to make a fg bet on the ultimate outcome?


OSHA actually keeps their template documents for emergency temporary standards public on their website so bureaucrats can draft them by ad libs.
Just gotta fill in the sections declaring what kind of {chemical abstracts service registry number} are being regulated, the {percentage} in solid or liquid mixtures containing that material, and airborne concentrations of {parts per million}, its permissible exposure limits, what kind of dermal or eye exposure or whether its a known carcinogen and provisions for disposal of it as a hazardous waste and labeling required for containers of the material.

I have to say, I'd put good fg on the regulations surviving court scrutiny if we were talking about workplaces shipping in barrels filled with hundreds of gallons of concentrated, liquid coronavirus and dumping them into the river
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Sep 9 2021 07:34pm
Quote (IceMage @ Sep 9 2021 06:06pm)
We'll find out. Whether it gets struck down or not, I appreciate the effort by a president to try to get a deadly pandemic under control,


The "pandemic" is not as deadly as we have been led to believe. Compare covid mortality rates to that of the common cold and see for yourself.

Stop letting the news-media lead you around by the nose.
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Sep 9 2021 07:35pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Sep 9 2021 06:04pm)

So do the Australians, and yet I don't think that empowering authorities to police beer consumption is a productive way to organize society. There are consequences to infantilizing adults. Whether this is legal or not will be for the courts to decide, but we should exercise caution, because we aren't going to be able to go back from this.


I don't think that's true, you just need consensus. Take a look at how quickly marijuana laws are falling at the state level. It will be legal at the federal level in the near future.
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