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Dec 29 2014 05:06pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Dec 29 2014 07:02pm)
They are inefficient economically overall. A broken window fallacy.
That which  is enriching for you personally or for a union leader is not necessarily efficient for everyone else.



I just laid out a long list of reasons explaining how they are bad for the public.

yes the government bargaining with my money against my interests is a reason I oppose what they do.


Fabrication+insult. well done.



Oh good more fallacies, sophomoric insults, and a point I already debunked.

I support the freedom of private citizens to keep their hard earned fruits of their own labor. I do not support your "freedom" to steal it or your "freedom" to rack up debt in my name to pay for your luxuries.
I also support allowing public employees to not be forced into public unions who take their money to perpetuate their infestations against his will.

Do you not understand that it is you who wants special rights, privileges and subsidies from the government at the expense of others?


I want to be compensated for my work fairly. It takes a libertarian lunatic to believe that being paid for work is a special right and privilege. Of course it all goes hand in hand with your overall support and call for feudalism.

This post was edited by RiskOfFire on Dec 29 2014 05:07pm
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Dec 29 2014 05:09pm
Quote (RiskOfFire @ Dec 29 2014 04:05pm)
As I said before, if my services were being rendered to involuntary beneficiaries they would vote for politicians that would disrupt those services.  I see you have absolutely no understanding of democracy to go with your complete lack of understanding of economics.


so under your logic if i eventually stop policies thats justice served? how does that give taxpayers money back? public unions can fight for compensation without immedate recourse or repayment.

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Dec 29 2014 05:13pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Dec 29 2014 07:09pm)
so under your logic if i eventually stop policies thats justice served? how does that give taxpayers money back? public unions can fight for compensation without immedate recourse or repayment.


You vote for politicians to represent you and make decisions. They in turn hired personnel to lead departments and agencies. Those leaders then bargain with unions to determine compensation for public workers. If you are unhappy with the outcome of those negotiations then either your candidate lost the election or you voted against your own interests. Regardless, the democratic process served it's purpose and just because you feel I am being overly compensated doesn't mean the rest of the rational country gives a fuck.
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Dec 29 2014 05:15pm
Quote (RiskOfFire @ Dec 29 2014 06:06pm)
I want to be compensated for my work fairly.  It takes a libertarian lunatic to believe that being paid for work is a special right and privilege.  Of course it all goes hand in hand with your overall support and avocation for feudalism.


More outright lies or you just don't know what feudalism means. (or you dont know what I actually advocate, despite thousands of posts in Pard explaining it in detail)

I'll quote an elegantly worded rebuttal that quickly lays out how stupid that comment was:

Quote
Libertarianism is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as the highest political end and emphasizes the primacy of individual liberty, political freedom and voluntary, non-coercive associations.

Feudalism is a set of legal and military customs based around a highly coercive and structured society and the holding of land by a few government privileged elites.

Yeah, I can see how the two can be considered equal. *facepalm*


Ironically, you are more closely aligned with advocacy for feudalism, insisting on big government, special privileges and compensation from government.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Dec 29 2014 05:16pm
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Dec 29 2014 05:25pm
Quote (RiskOfFire @ Dec 29 2014 05:13pm)
You vote for politicians to represent you and make decisions.  They in turn hired personnel to lead departments and agencies.  Those leaders then bargain with unions to determine compensation for public workers.  If you are unhappy with the outcome of those negotiations then either your candidate lost the election or you voted against your own interests.  Regardless, the democratic process served it's purpose and just because you feel I am being overly compensated doesn't mean the rest of the rational country gives a fuck.




how can you claim dept. leaders have the proper leverage to bargain? in many cases a strike or threat of one takes nearly all bargaining off the table

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Dec 29 2014 05:25pm
Quote (cambovenzi @ Dec 29 2014 07:15pm)
More outright lies or you just don't know what feudalism means. (or you dont know what I actually advocate, despite thousands of posts in Pard explaining it in detail)

I'll quote an elegantly worded rebuttal that quickly lays out how stupid that comment was:



Ironically, you are more closely aligned with advocacy for feudalism, insisting on big government and special privileges and compensation from government.


I've been reading your posts for years. I understand exactly what fantasy land nonsense you support and what the actual outcomes of your policies would be. The endgame of your dystopia is feudalism.
I advocate for government protecting the rights of individuals. You advocate for the protection of powerful organizations. You can lie all day and pretend you care about individual rights and liberties but allowing corporations and and the wealthy elite free reign is in direct opposition of individual rights. I imagine your child like mind looks at "government privileged elite" and "wealth privileged elite" and thinks they must be completely different.
You're the guy who wants to paint sweatshop owners as saints, say chaining children to sewing machines for 20 hours a day is good for them. You're incapable of understanding that creating an environment of oppression and coercion then calling people's actions within that environment voluntary is insane.

You keep lying and pretending you care about individual rights for more than a few individuals, you and your ideology are always going to be a fringe lunatic joke.

Quote (thesnipa @ Dec 29 2014 07:25pm)
how can you claim dept. leaders have the proper leverage to bargain? in many cases a strike or threat of one takes nearly all bargaining off the table


So public employees should be forced to work against their will for compensation less than they agree to? Let me look up how feudalism works...

This post was edited by RiskOfFire on Dec 29 2014 05:28pm
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Dec 29 2014 05:35pm
Quote (RiskOfFire @ Dec 29 2014 05:25pm)
I've been reading your posts for years.  I understand exactly what fantasy land nonsense you support and what the actual outcomes of your policies would be.  The endgame of your dystopia is feudalism.
I advocate for government protecting the rights of individuals.  You advocate for the protection of powerful organizations.  You can lie all day and pretend you care about individual rights and liberties but allowing corporations and and the wealthy elite free reign is in direct opposition of individual rights.  I imagine your child like mind looks at "government privileged elite" and "wealth privileged elite"  and thinks they must be completely different. 
You're the guy who wants to paint sweatshop owners as saints, say chaining children to sewing machines for 20 hours a day is good for them.  You're incapable of understanding that creating an environment of oppression and coercion then calling people's actions within that environment voluntary is insane. 

You keep lying and pretending you care about individual rights for more than a few individuals, you and your ideology are always going to be a fringe lunatic joke.



So public employees should be forced to work against their will for compensation less than they agree to?  Let me look up how feudalism works...


youre completely disregarding the fact that no person is shackled to the governement.

Even in a career as specialized towards government employment such as police work, private investigation or security are viable private sector jobs if the pay would truly disparage you.

Im not sure how you can completely discount that if the govt. consistently offered less than fair wages they would get less than average applicants driving the compensation back up.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 29 2014 05:35pm
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Dec 29 2014 05:39pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Dec 29 2014 05:25pm)
how can you claim dept. leaders have the proper leverage to bargain? in many cases a strike or threat of one takes nearly all bargaining off the table


So Ronald Regan didn't fire the air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike?
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Dec 29 2014 05:40pm
Even some of the biggest government politicians, judges and private-union supporters in our history understood some major problems of government unions:

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"Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." 
a "strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable."

-FDR

Quote
"To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous."

- NY Supreme court judge, 1943

Quote
THE PUBLIC-SECTOR DIFFERENCE

When it comes to advancing their interests, public-sector unions have significant advantages over traditional unions. For one thing, using the political process, they can exert far greater influence over their members' employers — that is, government — than private-sector unions can. Through their extensive political activity, these government-workers' unions help elect the very politicians who will act as "management" in their contract negotiations — in effect handpicking those who will sit across the bargaining table from them, in a way that workers in a private corporation (like, say, American Airlines or the Washington Post Company) cannot. Such power led Victor Gotbaum, the leader of District Council 37 of the AFSCME in New York City, to brag in 1975: "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss."

http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions


Quote (riskoffeudalism)
I've been reading your posts for years. I understand exactly what fantasy land nonsense you support and what the actual outcomes of your policies would be. The endgame of your dystopia is feudalism.
I advocate for government protecting the rights of individuals.
You advocate for the protection of powerful organizations. You can lie all day and pretend you care about individual rights and liberties but allowing corporations and and the wealthy elite free reign is in direct opposition of individual rights. I imagine your child like mind looks at "government privileged elite" and "wealth privileged elite" and thinks they must be completely different.
You're the guy who wants to paint sweatshop owners as saints, say chaining children to sewing machines for 20 hours a day is good for them. You're incapable of understanding that creating an environment of oppression and coercion then calling people's actions within that environment voluntary is insane.

You keep lying and pretending you care about individual rights for more than a few individuals, you and your ideology are always going to be a fringe lunatic joke.


Trying to see how many lies you can fit into one post?
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Dec 29 2014 05:42pm
ITT: Libertarians want to punish people who work for the government providing essential goods and services.
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