Quote (Crunkt @ Nov 19 2023 04:04pm)

saying that citizens in Gaza cant collect rain water or will be put to death is DEFINITELY just Israel expressing their right to defend themselves
https://i.imgur.com/HrFFnnl.png

Quote (cambovenzi @ Nov 19 2023 04:37pm)

Right, in your case the 'combatant' could be a three year old girl in a hospital and anyone pointing out the damning amount of innocent children killed is a Hamas apologist.



The Hamas terrorists are the individuals responsible for the attacks in Israel, not the entirety of the 2 million people in Gaza, and certainly not the actual children that are being killed by the thousands.

Israel has been oppressing the local population for decades and there have been no elections since 2006.

According to your logic Al Qaeda was justified killing American civilians because the US government had widespread support amongst the population.
The Biden administration has been doing some pretty evil stuff. Is anyone justified killing you? Or should that be rejected?



A far superior military bombing civilians en masse isn't defense.

This 'doesn't israel has a right to defend itself' narrative is very careful framing. Who wouldn't say they have a right to defend themselves?
Its much less flattering to ask if Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Or "How many innocent children can you kill before its not considered self defense?"



Recovery missions to rescue hostages and targeted missions to apprehend or kill those responsible, for example.

'Do nothing' and 'drop an insane amount of bombs on highly populated neighborhoods' aren't the only two options.

Quote (Bazi @ Nov 19 2023 04:39pm)

Let’s be real here

Nobody actually knows what the state on the ground is. Somehow the IDF have reduced their on the ground credibility to slightly better than the terrorist organization, that has zero credibility.

The IDF themselves declared 200 dead Hamas fighters on Thursday /Friday, so if the 11-12k figure is accurate that’s an abysmal ratio. Even if we widen goal posts to include angry children, that is still an abysmal ratio.

Maybe the IDF has been trained by American cops.

I don’t think many can honestly argue civilian to terrorist ratio of 50:1 (extreme underestimate) sets the region up for long term peace. But as many have eluded, peace isn’t the goal

Quote (duffman316 @ Nov 19 2023 05:47pm)

welcome back cam! are you still a libertarian? I'm honestly surprised by your views here but it's a welcome surprise

Quote (cambovenzi @ Nov 19 2023 06:02pm)

Hey, thanks. I pop in here and there. Yes I'm still a libertarian.

Opposition to wars and human rights violations and are a big part of libertarianism and my views here are consistent with that.
As is viewing people as individuals that don't deserve collective punishment or death for someone else's actions.

Quote (Santara @ Nov 19 2023 05:59pm)

States where collecting rainwater is restricted are Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Nevada, Ohio, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin.

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The operative word was ANY, don't act as if that weren't clear.

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Yes, Israel has been oppressing them for decades. That's not in dispute. What is the proper response by the Gazans to remedy that? Certainly not Oct 7th, so what is?

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That's not an extension of my logic, an extension would be that the US were justified in killing Arab civilians that al Quada was hiding amongst after 9/11. We weren't justified, but what was the proper and proportional response to 9/11?

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the notion that they can get all surgical and kill terrorists without making a mess is pretty preposterous

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Quote (Santara @ Nov 19 2023 04:59pm)

States where collecting rainwater is restricted are Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Nevada, Ohio, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin.



The operative word was ANY, don't act as if that weren't clear.

Yes, Israel has been oppressing them for decades. That's not in dispute. What is the proper response by the Gazans to remedy that? Certainly not Oct 7th, so what is?

That's not an extension of my logic, an extension would be that the US were justified in killing Arab civilians that al Quada was hiding amongst after 9/11. We weren't justified, but what was the proper and proportional response to 9/11?

Fighting back is defense. You can decry the methods, and for good reason. But you can't say that they can't or shouldn't fight back, and the notion that they can get all surgical and kill terrorists without making a mess when they left human intelligence behind in 2006 is pretty preposterous.



The total for the last 11 weeks or the total for Thursday/Friday? There are wildly different conclusions to be drawn from that info.

Quote (Santara @ 19 Nov 2023 17:59)

States where collecting rainwater is restricted are Arkansas, California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Nevada, Ohio, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin.

Quote (Meanwhile @ 19 Nov 2023 17:20)

Ah, interesting a new UN official article here (november 17 2023)

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/israel-must-stop-using-water-weapon-war-un-expert

Israel must stop using water as a weapon of war: UN expert


GENEVA (17 November 2023) – Israel must allow clean water and fuel into Gaza to activate the water supply network and desalination plants in the besieged enclave before it is too late, a UN expert warned today.
"Every hour that passes with Israel preventing the provision of safe drinking water in the Gaza strip, in brazen breach of international law, puts Gazans at risk of dying of thirst and diseases related to the lack of safe drinking water," said Pedro Arrojo-Agudo, the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights to safe drinking water and sanitation.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has announced that the complete depletion of fuel in Gaza is having catastrophic consequences, including the collapse in water supply, sewage and sanitation services, telecommunications and healthcare.
“I want to remind Israel that consciously preventing supplies needed for safe water from entering the Gaza Strip violates both international humanitarian and human rights law,” Arrojo-Agudo said. “The impact on public health and hygiene will be unimaginable and could result in more civilian deaths than the already colossal death toll from the bombardment of Gaza,” he said.
The expert warned that as usual, children will be the first affected by the water and sanitation crisis – particularly those under five years old – and women.
“These frequently invisible casualties of war are preventable, and Israel must prevent them,” he said. “Israel must stop using water as a weapon of war.”

“Under Article 7 of the Rome Statute, intentionally depriving the civilian population of conditions of life, calculated to bring about their destruction, is an act of extermination and classified as a crime against humanity,” Arrojo-Agudo warned.


According to UNRWA, around 70% of the population in Gaza is drinking salinised and contaminated water. This condition will escalate swiftly if Israel continues to block the entry of fuel into the blockaded area. UNRWA said public sewage pumping stations, 60 water wells in the south, the two main desalination plants in Rafah and the Middle Area, two main sewage pumps in the south, and the Rafah wastewater treatment plant have all ceased operations.

“People are already suffering from dehydration and waterborne diseases due to salinated and polluted water consumption from unsafe sources,” Arrojo-Agudo said. “Coupled with the massive displacement of thousands of people in recent days, this is the perfect scenario for an epidemic that will only punish innocents, once again.”

UNRWA has warned that humanitarian operations will begin to collapse this week due to a lack of fuel. UN OCHA said fuel is the driver of many aspects of the humanitarian response in Gaza, including desalination, electricity, healthcare and the operation of trucks that bring lifesaving aid from the Rafah crossing into the enclave.

The Special Rapporteur echoed warnings from UNRWA and other humanitarian aid agencies that 23,000 litres of fuel that entered Gaza on Tuesday represented only 9% the daily requirement to sustain lifesaving activities.

“The deaths of children from thirst and disease are less visible and more silent than those caused by bombs, but are equally or more lethal,” Arrojo-Agudo said, urging the international community to ensure Israel meets its obligations under international law.

“The fate of Palestinians in Gaza is in Israel's hands,” the expert said.

Quote (duffman316 @ Nov 19 2023 06:03pm)

if you tell me you attended a black lives matter rally i will eat my hat

Quote (cambovenzi @ Nov 19 2023 03:54pm)

BLM sucks. grifters, rioters and thieves. Turning police brutality into a divisive race issue and platform for socialists.

Kyle Rittenhouse did nothing wrong.

Quote (Meanwhile @ Nov 19 2023 11:20pm)

Ah, interesting a new UN official article here (november 17 2023)

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/israel-must-stop-using-water-weapon-war-un-expert

Israel must stop using water as a weapon of war: UN expert


GENEVA (17 November 2023) – Israel must allow clean water and fuel into Gaza to activate the water supply network and desalination plants in the besieged enclave before it is too late, a UN expert warned today.
"Every hour that passes with Israel preventing the provision of safe drinking water in the Gaza strip, in brazen breach of international law, puts Gazans at risk of dying of thirst and diseases related to the lack of safe drinking water," said Pedro Arrojo-Agudo, the UN Special Rapporteur on the human rights to safe drinking water and sanitation.
The UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has announced that the complete depletion of fuel in Gaza is having catastrophic consequences, including the collapse in water supply, sewage and sanitation services, telecommunications and healthcare.
“I want to remind Israel that consciously preventing supplies needed for safe water from entering the Gaza Strip violates both international humanitarian and human rights law,” Arrojo-Agudo said. “The impact on public health and hygiene will be unimaginable and could result in more civilian deaths than the already colossal death toll from the bombardment of Gaza,” he said.
The expert warned that as usual, children will be the first affected by the water and sanitation crisis – particularly those under five years old – and women.
“These frequently invisible casualties of war are preventable, and Israel must prevent them,” he said. “Israel must stop using water as a weapon of war.”

“Under Article 7 of the Rome Statute, intentionally depriving the civilian population of conditions of life, calculated to bring about their destruction, is an act of extermination and classified as a crime against humanity,” Arrojo-Agudo warned.


According to UNRWA, around 70% of the population in Gaza is drinking salinised and contaminated water. This condition will escalate swiftly if Israel continues to block the entry of fuel into the blockaded area. UNRWA said public sewage pumping stations, 60 water wells in the south, the two main desalination plants in Rafah and the Middle Area, two main sewage pumps in the south, and the Rafah wastewater treatment plant have all ceased operations.

“People are already suffering from dehydration and waterborne diseases due to salinated and polluted water consumption from unsafe sources,” Arrojo-Agudo said. “Coupled with the massive displacement of thousands of people in recent days, this is the perfect scenario for an epidemic that will only punish innocents, once again.”

UNRWA has warned that humanitarian operations will begin to collapse this week due to a lack of fuel. UN OCHA said fuel is the driver of many aspects of the humanitarian response in Gaza, including desalination, electricity, healthcare and the operation of trucks that bring lifesaving aid from the Rafah crossing into the enclave.

The Special Rapporteur echoed warnings from UNRWA and other humanitarian aid agencies that 23,000 litres of fuel that entered Gaza on Tuesday represented only 9% the daily requirement to sustain lifesaving activities.

“The deaths of children from thirst and disease are less visible and more silent than those caused by bombs, but are equally or more lethal,” Arrojo-Agudo said, urging the international community to ensure Israel meets its obligations under international law.

“The fate of Palestinians in Gaza is in Israel's hands,” the expert said.