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Sep 23 2022 03:48pm
Quote (Palasan @ Sep 23 2022 04:30pm)
So how do you feel about us bombing Japan with nuclear weapons? Was that war crime as well? Or was it better to engage in conventional warfare where 10-20x more would die.


War crime? Yes.

Quote (Cascadian @ Sep 23 2022 04:35pm)
Japan was going to surrender without the United States using nuclear weapons, and the military strategists knew it. Using the weapon was a show of power against Russia which is what was the beginning of our adversarial relationship with Russia as their spies had already uncovered we were creating a "super bomb". In fact, more than double the quantity of civilians died from the United States fire bombing raids of Tokyo than both Nukes combined. The Army brass were concerned there wouldn't be any cities left to nuke before it was ready.

To clearly answer your point, it also was absolutely a war crime as it targeted civilians and even if it did "save 20x military lives" it would have still been a war crime, but that is just demonstrably false.

Fun fact, Kyoto was actually a target, but the president himself nixed it due to it being a beautiful city.


This.

Quote (chopstickz777 @ Sep 23 2022 04:38pm)
Yeah remember when the US attacked Iraq and the whole country was without power after like 2 days? Russia didn't target a power plant until 6 months into their operation and even then they only did it as a response to the Ukrainian army shelling on Donetsk and Luhansk's civilian infrastructure, as a warning that they can do it too.

As usual the Ukrops are 100% responsible for bringing this shit down on themselves.


Not this.
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Sep 23 2022 03:50pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2022 04:42pm)
Needs a subscription. I think I understand the narrative.

Suggesting Churchill is a war criminal for as you said "carpet bombing", is implying his intention to kill civilians. Or through as you've stated, by failing to minimise civilian casualties.
Objectively that viewpoint doesn't hold water. The intention was to diminish Nazi industrial capability. The RAF was going to do whatever it took, to stop Axis troops ending up on British shores.

Nazi's had obliterated most of Europe and half of Russia. Murdered millions of innocent people. Bombed England for 50 consecutive days in 1940.

It is balanced to cast dispersion on Churchills character. He was literally born 150 years ago. By modern morality standards he was likely a monster.
However to flippantly suggest that he was a war criminal, particularly citing the bombing raids of the allies. Is both inaccurate and impudent.


Odd, I don't have one.

Quote
‘Icannot describe to you what a curious note of brutality a bomb has,’ said one woman who lived through the initial German raids on London during the second world war. This woman’s ambivalent reaction to having a bomb rip through her bedroom typified the shocking reality of a different type of war to any that had ever been fought before.

For as Richard Overy makes eminently clear in his extraordinary and far-reaching history of Europe’s bombing war, this was the first time civilians actually became a part of the front line. The cause of this was the advent of aerial bombardment, which, Overy says, exposed ‘the democratic nature of total war, which insisted that all citizens had a part to play.’

The idea that bombing could demoralise a population and cause a government crisis had been a topic of hot discussion during the interwar years. In a lengthy preamble Overy, who has written numerous histories of the second world war, focuses on Bulgaria as a microcosm of the issues which defined the wider ‘strategic’ bombing war in Europe:


The bombing of Bulgaria was Churchill’s idea, and he remained the driving force behind the argument that air raids would provide a quick and relatively cheap way of forcing the country to change sides.
Fine in theory, but in practice things worked rather differently. The ‘political dividend’ Churchill sought to achieve in the early months of 1944 was offset by a high level of civilian casualties ‘which undermined the prestige of both the United States and Britain in the eyes of the Bulgarian people’. Overy notes that while bombing contributed to the collapse of any pro-German consensus and strengthened the hand of opposition political parties it did not result in a change of government until September 1944 when the Soviets introduced an administration dominated by the Bulgarian communist party.

Martialling his facts with dexterity Overy argues that bombing in Europe was never a war-winning strategy and invariably caused more harm than good. In what is the first full narrative of the bombing war in Europe Overy’s scope is incredibly broad and well-researched, also highly readable. He tackles not only the wider conflict with Germany but little-known bombing wars in France and Italy, which in both cases resulted in civilian casualties the equal of the Blitz.

He has also had access to ‘two new sources’ from the former Soviet archives, which include German air force documents covering the Blitz and others which throw new light on Germany’s bombings of Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad — an area which up until now has had very little coverage.

Overy traces the origins of the bombing war back to 10 May 1940, the same day that Germany began its attack on the West and Churchill replaced Chamberlain as British prime minister. ‘Chamberlain had always opposed the use of bombing against urban targets,’ writes Overy, ‘but Churchill had no conscientious or legal objections.’ Indeed, already as Minister of Munitions in 1917, Churchill had been in favour of an independent air force and a policy of long-range bombing against German industrial targets.

Up until Churchill’s appointment as prime minister both Germany and Britain had stuck to a pledge not to attack targets in each other’s cities where civilians were at risk. Overy dismisses the long-held belief ‘firmly rooted in the British public mind’ that Hitler initiated the trend for indiscriminate bombings. Instead, he says, the decision to take the gloves off was Churchill’s, ‘because of the crisis in the Battle of France, not because of German air raids [over Britain].’

Ethical restraints which had been imposed at the start of the war became slowly eroded as a result of Britain’s decision to initiate ‘unrestricted’ bombing of targets located in Germany’s urban areas. In a fascinating chapter entitled ‘The Sorcerer’s Apprentice’ Overy suggests that Britain’s Bomber Command developed its tactics for concentrated ‘area bombing’ and the wide use of incendiary bombs by observing the destruction Germany wrought on London during the Blitz.

The RAF altered its strategy of focusing on precise targets when it saw how effectively the German air force attacked clusters of targets in industrial and commercial areas. However, Overy says that under Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris’s stewardship Bomber Command took things a grisly step further by deliberately targeting German workers to reduce industrial output.

For much of the war, combined British, Commonwealth and American forces lacked the necessary technology to develop the long-range heavy bombers they needed to launch attacks on Germany’s main industrial hubs. The bombing war only really escalated in 1943 when Harris finally felt ready to launch three major offensives: the Ruhr-Rhineland in late spring and summer, Hamburg in July and Berlin in the autumn.

It was the second of these, codenamed ‘Operation Gomorrah’, that resulted in the single largest loss of civilian life in one city throughout the European war. Some 37,000 people died and over 60 per cent of Hamburg’s houses and apartments were destroyed by a blaze of incendiary bombs. Overy cites a German doctor who says he had to estimate the number of dead by measuring the ash left on the floor.

It was only near the end of the war, and the bombing of Dresden which killed approximately 25,000 people in a few hours, that there was any kind of outcry against Allied strategy, which incidentally had failed in any way to stem Germany’s production of armaments (there was a three-fold increase between 1941 and 1944). Yet after the war the British Bombing Survey Unit’s assessment was positively damning and criticised almost ‘all phases of Bomber Command’s activities except the final phase against oil and communications targets [in Germany].’

Though he is never quick to judge Overy does not disagree with postwar interpretations which saw ‘the final flourish of bombing against a weakened enemy, with overwhelming force, as merely punitive, neither necessary, nor, as a result, morally justified’. Looking desperately among the historical rubble for a positive response to a campaign which saw roughly 50 per cent of bomber pilots lose their lives during airborne sorties, Overy, suggests that "bombing was at its most significant as a political gambit in the earlier part of the war when the British government used the RAF as a means to win support among the occupied populations and from the US by showing that Britain was capable of fighting back."

It is small consolation for what the esteemed Canadian economist John Kenneth Galbraith described as ‘one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest, miscalculation of the war.
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Sep 23 2022 04:07pm
Quote (Santara @ Sep 23 2022 10:50pm)
Odd, I don't have one.


Where are the goalposts moving now?
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Sep 23 2022 04:09pm
Quote (Palasan @ 23 Sep 2022 14:44)
Don't believe that at all.


Well that is the thing about facts, they are true regardless if you believe them. Its not even a stretch, the United States had absolute air superiority and had been doing fire bombing runs on civilians targets for over 2 years non-stop. You are invited to read about the United States acquisition of nuclear weapons but it was a literal RACE at Los Alamos to develop the bomb before Japan surrendered from the air campaign.

If you want to believe the "Defense" the United States came up with 23 years after the bombing to deflect away from antiwar sentiment at home, be my guest.

Like what, do you think we were going to land troops? There are no plans or timelines for it in the archives. We were going to bomb them back to the stone age with traditional weaponry...

Check out Command and Control, and Summons the Trumpet to start.

This post was edited by Cascadian on Sep 23 2022 04:18pm
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Sep 23 2022 04:16pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2022 05:07pm)
Where are the goalposts moving now?


Pretty sure they're still talking about indiscriminate bombings of population centers.
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Sep 23 2022 04:22pm
Quote (Cascadian @ Sep 24 2022 01:09am)
Well that is the thing about facts, they are true regardless if you believe them. Its not even a stretch, the United States had absolute air superiority and had been doing fire bombing runs on civilians targets for over 2 years non-stop. You are invited to read about the United States acquisition of nuclear weapons but it was a literal RACE at Los Alamos to develop the bomb before Japan surrendered from the air campaign.

If you want to believe the "Defense" the United States came up with 23 years after the bombing to deflect away from antiwar sentiment at home, be my guest.

Like what, do you think we were going to land troops? There are no plans or timelines for it in the archives. We were going to bomb them back to the stone age with traditional weaponry...

Check out Command and Control, and Summons the Trumpet to start.


Was Japan ready to surrender after the atomic bomb?
The same day, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki. Even after the bombs and the Soviet invasion, some of Japan’s hawks weren’t ready to stop fighting, according to some historians. Gen. Korechika Anami, Japan’s minister of war, called for conditions that the world wouldn’t have recognized as surrender.
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Sep 23 2022 04:24pm
Quote (Santara @ Sep 23 2022 11:16pm)
Pretty sure they're still talking about indiscriminate bombings of population centers.


Good, I thought you were throwing everything at the wall in hope something would stick. Not a war criminal.
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Sep 23 2022 04:26pm
Quote (Palasan @ 23 Sep 2022 15:22)
Was Japan ready to surrender after the atomic bomb?
The same day, the United States dropped an atomic bomb on Nagasaki. Even after the bombs and the Soviet invasion, some of Japan’s hawks weren’t ready to stop fighting, according to some historians. Gen. Korechika Anami, Japan’s minister of war, called for conditions that the world wouldn’t have recognized as surrender.


I'm not just making this up, google it, there is overwhelming evidence from both Japan and the United States that both sides knew they were going to surrender regardless. The United States was stalling because they wanted to drop the bomb as a show of force to Russia. Don't take my word for it, jump in your search engine and enjoy.

Assuming this is true, it most surely moves what the United States did deeper into war crime territory too :( hope you can live with that.

This post was edited by Cascadian on Sep 23 2022 04:28pm
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Sep 23 2022 04:29pm
Quote (Prox1m1ty @ Sep 23 2022 05:24pm)
Good, I thought you were throwing everything at the wall in hope something would stick. Not a war criminal.


I thought you just wanted the rest of the context from the quote I gave earlier.

I'm just gonna agree to disagree.
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Sep 23 2022 10:29pm
Quote (Cascadian @ Sep 23 2022 03:40pm)
Targeting non-nuclear power generating facilities is completely different than targeting a nuclear reactor. The fact you are even trying to what-about-ism a completely campaign to justify Russia is depressing, but you are just some nitwit American trolling as a wannabe Russian bot farm or something.


When did Russia target a nuclear reactor? Oh yeah never. That was the Ukrainian army which shelled *its own* nuclear power plant in a desperate bid to use nuclear blackmail against Russia.

Hell, if Ukrainian shells cause a nuclear incident, the mass media will just blame it on Russia anyway. And then gullible children like you will swallow it up. It must be an interesting life when you gobble up every piece of propaganda thrown your way
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