Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 20 2018 10:27pm)

you know what the problem with hypotheticals is?

I mean, we have proof that Hillary/DNC actually did collude with the Ukraine (manafort ledger), and proof she/they colluded with Russian sources (steele dossier), both with the purpose of influencing the election. Heck the FEC even fined Bernie for colluding with a foreign government and it didn't even make the papers. And here we are two years of wild accusations against Trump later and it looks further than ever that any actual knowing collusion took place. Yet you still want to deal in the hypothetical. You can use hypothetical scenarios to debunk claims and identify the weaknesses of theories, but they're all too spurious when you want to construct one in the absence of evidence. Take the hypothetical case where Putin did have kompromat on Trump and did collude with him. In that scenario, you have to come up with rational explanations for why Putin would never deploy his kompromat even after years of Trump pooping all over Russia. 3 rounds of sanctions, 2 rounds of tomahawks on assad, blowing up 200 russians in battle, sending lethal arms like patriot missiles to ukraine and poland ($200 million more released just today), undermining his energy leverage with LNG shipments and opposing nord stream 2, denouncing him on skripal and election hacking, ejecting diplomats, closing consulates, etc etc etc etc. Such a theory needs to explain how all that can happen and Putin did not use his leverage to stop it. You can't keep rationalizing every action as a false flag gambit, then its nothing but tinfoil nuttery. Also, you must rationalize the theory by figuring out how it all managed to stay secret this long. With every journalist in the western hemisphere digging desperately to try to find collusion, and an intelligence community so leaky that the public gets to know what Trump eats for breakfast, there's no way such a conspiracy could be kept hidden for so long. Same problem as the 9/11 crackpots, Maddox had a good piece on debunking conspiracies back when everyone screaming about it now was in diapers.

It reeks of desperation when the best the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists can hope for at this point is the kind of offense that is either not illegal, or an FEC violation that's normally punished with a slap on the wrist, minor fine and sending kids on their way.
People want to believe in conspiracies. People would rather delegitimize their opposition than address their arguments. Our political discourse is all about impugning motives on a scale never seen before in American politics, not even prior to the civil war when ideologues at least did each other the service of acknowledging the contrasting views as they spat upon one another and beat them with canes.

Quote (Goomshill @ 20 Jul 2018 22:27)

It reeks of desperation when the best the anti-Trump conspiracy theorists can hope for at this point is the kind of offense that is either not illegal, or an FEC violation that's normally punished with a slap on the wrist, minor fine and sending kids on their way.
People want to believe in conspiracies. People would rather delegitimize their opposition than address their arguments.

proud to deliver

Quote (Ghot @ Jul 20 2018 08:34pm)

Let's just hope the US is upgrading their offenses and defenses, while all this politobull is going on.


/e make no mistake. Russia wants our balls in a vice for dissembling the USSR. Last I heard they can now hit the US via a south pole trajectory.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Jul 20 2018 08:20pm)

You keep using the word conspiracy without defining it. If Trump had knowledge of what exactly? That the Russians favored him over her? That they hacked the DNC?

The GRU can come out tomorrow and tell us that they hacked the DNC and exposed the corruption to damage Hillary and i would shake their hand and applaud them for it. Even if Trump knew during the election that the Russians were doing this i don't care. It's no holds barred battle of political interests and the neocons lost, at least temporarily. As a paleoconservative i'm very happy we are taking a more isolationist, more pacifist role in the world. Fuck the neocons that want to spend tax dollars projecting power across the globe, we're 6 trillion in the red between Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria i'm extremely satisfied with Trumps handling of foreign policy.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 20 2018 10:32pm)

I just think its telling. Our country could be having a spirited debate of the pros and cons of progressivism vs neoliberalism/neoconservatism vs populism vs libertarianism. It could be a debate over whether universal healthcare is actually feasible if it requires a nationalization of the entire industry and restructuring at all levels, it could be a debate about the proper balance of protectionism vs free trade and how far the positive sum vs zero sum game theory is applicable. It could be a debate over how we can humanely protect our borders and maintain our sovereignty and identity. But no, everything I just mentioned is little more than given lip service by politicians who just obliquely reference the issues, post a blurb on their campaign websites and then completely ignore it when engaging their opponents. Because instead the 'debate' is whether Hillary killed Seth Rich or whether Trump is colluding with Russia. We should be debating how America can maneuver geopolitically to rival the ascendant China. We should be debating both how we leverage our relationship with Russia to maintain our #1 superpower status. We should be seeking to exploit China's upcoming grey dawn as their age bubble bursts and they struggle to maintain stability and not balkanize. But no, instead, every diplomatic maneuver by Trump must be viewed through the lens of "MUH COLLUSION"

MiceAge thinks the issue is in the answer to his question, but the issue is that he's asking the question at all.

Quote (Goomshill @ Jul 20 2018 09:27pm)

you know what the problem with hypotheticals is?

tldr

Quote (IceMage @ Jul 20 2018 12:38pm)

Goom will deflect and minimize without answering the question.