Quote (ofthevoid @ 23 Nov 2017 21:32)

We have and we do. NATO has been inching closer and closer to the Russian borders. We have THAAD missiles pointing at Russia in Poland and Romania. Think about how would you feel if the Russians struck some deal with Cuba or Venezuela or whatever other nation close to us and started building military infrastructure right next door to us. Most recently we went into Ukraine and started meddling there and overthrew a pro Russian regime in favor of a western one. Ukrainians are extremely close to Russians culturally, ancestrally, etc. Can you imagine if the US had a disagreement with Canada and Russia started sending weapon systems, and training the Canadians for a war with us? This is a objective equivalence that you will dismiss, once again , because you think we are somehow representative of good guys and what we do is for some absolute good, no matter how damaging it is to those regions of the world. Like i said look at Libya & ME, can you really say with a straight face that our interference there was a net positive?

Just like Israelis meddle in Iranian affairs or the Saudis in Lebanese, Syrian, Qatari, Yemeni, et cetera . This is how the world works, countries that have the power to meddle do so for their own benefit. It's to our benefit to go to a bunch of east Asian countries and influence them to form military alliances against China. It's to our benefit to do the same in Europe against Russia. It's to our benefit to interfere in the ME and place people and regimes in power that will be friendly to us and give ear to our interests. Just because American media doesn't broadcast our use of soft power (and it's quite extensive compared to Russias doesn't mean it doesn't exist)



Where you been gayboy i missed you.

Ah yes "Putin apologist" that's totally me m8 :rolleyes:

Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 23 2017 04:32pm)

We have and we do. NATO has been inching closer and closer to the Russian borders. We have THAAD missiles pointing at Russia in Poland and Romania. Think about how would you feel if the Russians struck some deal with Cuba or Venezuela or whatever other nation close to us and started building military infrastructure right next door to us. Most recently we went into Ukraine and started meddling there and overthrew a pro Russian regime in favor of a western one. Ukrainians are extremely close to Russians culturally, ancestrally, etc. Can you imagine if the US had a disagreement with Canada and Russia started sending weapon systems, and training the Canadians for a war with us? This is a objective equivalence that you will dismiss, once again , because you think we are somehow representative of good guys and what we do is for some absolute good, no matter how damaging it is to those regions of the world. Like i said look at Libya & ME, can you really say with a straight face that our interference there was a net positive?

Just like Israelis meddle in Iranian affairs or the Saudis in Lebanese, Syrian, Qatari, Yemeni, et cetera . This is how the world works, countries that have the power to meddle do so for their own benefit. It's to our benefit to go to a bunch of east Asian countries and influence them to form military alliances against China. It's to our benefit to do the same in Europe against Russia. It's to our benefit to interfere in the ME and place people and regimes in power that will be friendly to us and give ear to our interests. Just because American media doesn't broadcast our use of soft power (and it's quite extensive compared to Russias doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

Quote (Ghot @ 24 Nov 2017 04:14)

Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Nov 25 2017 09:26am)

Losing much sense when you know that just 1 nuke EMP area effect can put a country of the size of usa back to stone age.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/16/the-trump-administration-has-no-plan-for-dealing-with-a-north-korean-emp-attack/

so imagine vs russia ... LOL

Quote (Scaly @ Nov 23 2017 09:53pm)

It's kinda fucking dumb to say 'we do it too' as if that solves the matter. This is a propaganda war mate. We need to protect ourselves against foreign interference in our democratic processes. In real war you don't just say 'well they're killing us too' and not bother handing out flak jackets to your troops. You work out how they're killing your troops and develop defenses against them doing it.

As I said earlier - this isn't a question of whether we are or should be running our own propaganda campaigns. We probably are. It's a question of how effective their campaign has been and is, to what ends it is being employed and how we can defend against it.

Also, specifically in this thread it's a question of whether May calling out Putin for it was a tactlessly undiplomatic display of bravado to cover how weak she is or an entirely warranted rallying cry and how much it has affected putin's recent ramping up of tensions.

Not the childish 'he started it' bullshit that you're trying to pull.

Quote (IceMage @ Nov 25 2017 07:16am)

I can't imagine those things, because it's not in the interest of our allies to suddenly jump ship and invite the Russians in. It's also not in the interest of the Russians to put weapons systems in Cuba. Why do you think these countries outside of Russia made those deals with the West? Because it wasn't in their national interest to separate themselves from the Russians? That's where your naive view of international actors falls apart... it ignores the historical, cultural, and moral differences between powers. Again, there's normal meddling and there's abnormal meddling. The US overthrowing the regime in Iraq was abnormal(not comparable to Libya or Syria), and Russia's meddling in the 2016 election was abnormal meddling.

How did the US overthrow the pro-Russian Ukrainian regime?

My questions weren't rhetorical, I don't know why you have trouble answering them. Every post of yours is the same, just muddying the waters and changing the topic to past US foreign policy mistakes. If you just started posting a year or two ago I'd question if you were a Russian troll.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 25 2017 11:18am)

No i'm just a realist and an informed adult on these matters meanwhile you guys are crying about how evil Russia is without a shred of understanding of geopolitics.



I keep answering all of your simple minded questions but you keep on with the cognitive dissonance. Seriously bro, read these articles below and get informed on what actually took place in Ukraine instead of regurgitating propaganda.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

Here's more:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Basically a leaked conversation of our Sec of State and Ukrainian diplomats in which we're coaching and calling the shots on what Ukrainian opposition leaders should do. But yes Icemage we had no interests there.

http://www.newsweek.com/oliver-stone-meets-toppled-ukrainian-president-accuses-cia-sparking-coup-295814

Quote (stimpy6298 @ 25 Nov 2017 16:43)

why do you hate america so much? What did we do to you exactly but being overwhelmingly better at everything than you

Quote (IceMage @ Nov 25 2017 10:07am)

Simply proclaiming "you guys don't know anything about geopolitics and I do" isn't an argument. You haven't shown yourself to be that knowledgeable about geopolitics, you just have an anti-Western view and you think that makes you more objective.

You aren't answering my questions. They aren't simple minded, but they are simple, so I'm wondering why you can't just tell us all where you're coming from. It's just deflection, strawmen, and false equivalence.

Where in this article is there evidence of the US overthrowing the Russia-backed regime in Ukraine? It's just a guy giving the pro-Russian argument on the Ukraine situation. You make a lot of proclamations without evidence. A narrative that conflicts with yours isn't just propaganda because you say it is. Provide evidence.

The transcript isn't evidence that we're calling the shots, it's evidence that we're trying to influence the new government. Why shouldn't we? If Ukraine wants our help in forming a government that will make the country a better place for it's citizens, we should give it. I never said we didn't have an interest in ensuring Ukraine is a pro-Western(economic and social liberties, oh my!) government, that's another strawman.

You mean the ousted Russian puppet is accusing the CIA of wrongdoing? And he's telling it to Oliver Stone, the guy who will cozy up to any tyrannical leader the US doesn't like? That's a... cool story bro.