Daca Set To Be Phased Out - Topic

fender

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#61

Sep 5 2017 08:08am

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

Its very hard for us to have an honest discussion on immigration in 2017 isn't it?

apparently

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

We should be weighing the moral and pragmatic arguments. But if we simply deny the costs and risks and pretend immigration is always a net good, we get a disingenuous argument

and if we simply ignore the upsides and misrepresent the scope and risks of the downsides, pretending immigration is inherently dangerous, we also get a disingenuous argument.

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

No, illegal immigrants aren't paying as much in taxes as the social programs they receive.

source?

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

No, we can't absorb people indefinitely.

hyperbole much? acting like that's what's happening is absurd. in fact, net migration with mexico has been negative for quite a while.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/apr/26/ron-kind/yes-experiencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

No, illegal immigrants don't commit neglible crimes per capita.

source?

Quote (Goomshill @ 5 Sep 2017 11:45)

Are there still moral concerns that could justify giving paths to citizenship and deferments? Yes. But if we deny all the former in favor of the latter, then the only reasonable argument we're hearing is one-sided.

are there downsides to illegal immigration? absolutely, and how to handle it and illegals that are already in a country is an important issue to solve. but hey, let's in this thread about DACA - concerning the innocent children of illegals, who grew up to became productive, law abiding members of society - exaggerate the fears and risks of illegal immigration to justify our emperors moronic approach towards this program, his attempt to appeal to his bigoted base by alienating the most innocent and at the same time most desirable kind of immigrants you could want for your country...

This post was edited by fender on Sep 5 2017 08:13am

PlasmaSnake101

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#62

Sep 5 2017 08:25am

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 3 2017 07:30pm)

Unless their leadership uses the 6 month phase out to pass it into law, they just alienated enough moderate Republicans to lose in 2020.

So they aren't totally screwed, unless the freedom caucus snakes strike at the party's heels again.

They just had a major victory in the face of certain defeat with a Presidential Candidate who ran on "Build a wall", end birth right citizenship, and deport like wild.

The myth of appealing to moderate Republicans is garbage. Look at Dean Heller, tried to run moderate and there is no way he will win his senate reelection in 2018.

I'm thinking it'll be used as a bargaining chip, hence the 6 month delay. Weaken DACA, but keep some portions through legislature while shooting for RAISE Act and border wall funding.

Goomshill

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#63

Sep 5 2017 08:30am

Quote (fender @ Sep 5 2017 08:08am)

source?

http://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

Quote

source?

The earth isn't flat either.

excellence

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#64

Sep 5 2017 08:31am

Quote (fender @ 5 Sep 2017 10:08)

apparently

and if we simply ignore the upsides and misrepresent the scope and risks of the downsides, pretending immigration is inherently dangerous, we also get a disingenuous argument.

source?

hyperbole much? acting like that's what's happening is absurd. in fact, net migration with mexico has been negative for quite a while.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/apr/26/ron-kind/yes-experiencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/

source?

are there downsides to illegal immigration? absolutely, and how to handle it and illegals that are already in a country is an important issue to solve. but hey, let's in this thread about DACA - concerning the innocent children of illegals, who grew up to became productive, law abiding members of society - exaggerate the fears and risks of illegal immigration to justify our emperors moronic approach towards this program, his attempt to appeal to his bigoted base by alienating the most innocent and at the same time most desirable kind of immigrants you could want for your country...

fender aka Heinrich von goebbels, descendant of joseph, showing his bigotry again. he hates legal immigrants of african, asian, european, or central/south american heritage that choose to follow the rules and laws of immigrating to America. Maybe its because fender aka Heinrich von goebbels, descendant of joseph's own visa was denied after evidence of his violent and hateful tendencies were reported to the authorities in Mainz, Germany and the USA.

heinrich prefers people that have spent their days helping out and being productive society members like this little fella:

http://amp.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article19180179.html

Immigration officials admit murder suspect was in gang database

Quote

Federal immigration officials admitted this week that the suspect in the February slayings of four people in Charlotte, N.C., was granted special immigration status – shielding him from deportation two years ago despite being listed in a federal database as a gang member.

Emmanuel Jesus Rangel-Hernandez, 19, has been charged with four counts of first-degree murder in connection with a three-day shooting spree that included the death of one-time “America’s Next Top Model” contestant Mirjana Puhar.

The revelation casts a shadow on the Obama administration’s efforts to expand the controversial immigration program that’s intended to protect one of the most sympathetic groups of immigrants in the country – young people brought here as children.

Federal authorities have since found 13 other cases in the same federal crime database of people were approved for protection from deportation. Those cases are now being reconsidered.

Rangel-Hernandez never should have received the protective status and likely would have been deported had U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services followed proper procedures and protocols, federal officials said in a letter Friday to Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, who had been questioning the case.

In 2013, Rangel-Hernandez applied for and was granted the special protective status, known as Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA, despite the fact that he was listed in a federal crime database as a known gang member.

then of course we have proud DACA potentials who utilize such rhetoric:

"make america mexico again"
"fly foreign flags in protest of the USA while in the USA"
"F the usa putos"
"Viva (enter homeland country), f the Usa!"

heinrich, let's say that a bunch (millions) of Turkish nationals emigrated to Germany without following immigration laws, and over time started flying their nation's flag and saying "Make Germany Turkey" -would that be fine by you?

PlasmaSnake101

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#65

Sep 5 2017 08:33am

Quote (Interesting @ Sep 3 2017 08:20pm)

It's been widely known and accepted for ten years that most tax revenue in the country is generated in liberal places and that most government welfare is dispensed in the conservative places.

I've always argued that that is misleading based off of just looking at federal dollars. Of course more federal funding would go into low tax red states which don't pursuit state-wide or local welfare policies, but where citizens can still apply for federal aid programs. California requires less federal dollars for aid than Alabama because California has more locally run social programs.

But that's just a theory and I haven't looked into the raw data. It could be that a higher proportion of people are on aid in these regions, or that their are more people on federal aid in red state, but a greater proportion of people in a blue state are on both state and federal aid seperately.

The federal contributor/expenditure approach seems flawed on its own.

Black XistenZ

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#66

Sep 5 2017 08:36am

Quote (PlasmaSnake101 @ 5 Sep 2017 16:25)

trump also had an economic message that consisted of anti free trade, anti outsourcing, anti wallstreet, putting jobs above environment and so on. his immigration message was more relevant in the southern states, his economic message was more relevant to the issues in the midwest.

in the end, he made huge gains in the midwest, which gave him the victory, but he lost votes in all states close to the border. he lost votes in california, in new mexico, in arizona and in texas. its just that republican baseline margins in arizona and particularly texas were healthy enough to sustain those losses. he also lost the rather diverse swing states of nevada and virginia, and he failed to stop colorado and virginia from trending blue. on the other hand, he won florida back from democrats.

imho it is very hard to disentangle these effects. we dont really know for sure how much of his victory can be attributed to his hardline immigration stance, and how much to his economic message.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Sep 5 2017 08:37am

Tuna_BeIIy

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#67

Sep 5 2017 08:38am

Quote (excellence @ Sep 5 2017 09:28am)

lol at all the morons who reply to him with the same tired rhetoric over and over

>drumpf you are a heartless dictator for asking the legislative branch of the US goverment to function as expressed by the Constitution. doesnt he know the constitution is unconstitutional and the US legal code is illegal?!?!?! This is proof of obstruction and russian national socialist ties, impeach!!!!!

Reeeeeeeeeeeee

:lol:

Social media is all virtue signaling sadly, we could be in the middle of WWIII and people would still post shit like "well I didn't vote for him!"

PlasmaSnake101

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#68

Sep 5 2017 08:41am

Quote (inkanddagger @ Sep 3 2017 09:13pm)

I feel like you guys just don't quite understand.

Imagine that you were brought by your parents to the United States as a baby. You grow up an American, maybe you only know English, you go through high school here, maybe you're even the valedictorian and prom king. You worked hard and now that you've graduated, it's time to get a job and go to university.

Only something isn't right. You discover at 18 years old that you can't apply to college or get a job because you don't have a US birth certificate. Your parents crossed the border illegally and never told you. They abandoned their culture and only taught you English because they wanted you to fully assimilate.

Now Donald Trump is deporting you to a place you have no memory of, where you don't speak the language, and where all of your accomplishments for the first 18 years of your life no longer matter.

This is what DACA was designed to address. There is no path to citizenship for these kids, and many of them grew up the same as you, many never knowing that the country they believed in wasn't actually home.

Don't come to me with an emotional appeal, they no longer work. There are no good people in this world. While I may sympathize with their suffering, we have laws that must be enforced. Non-citizens are consuming resources meant for citizens, receiving education meant for citizens (don't tell me they just learn English, I taught in Nevada and there is a huge need for ESL). Understand that. They use thin public school resources in order to teach non-citizen children English while we have a teacher shortage year after year. That's just a basic but very huge example about how these arrangements hurt American citizens. Now, DACA may only apply to older people, but don't act like these foreign angels sacrificed all and took nothing. It's simply disingenuous. It's much more extreme than when I was in school (graduated in 07) and it gets worse every year.

They've a valuable assets now, bilingual and an American education. They'll be better off than the domestic population in their nations of origin. Let them find work there and improve those communities.

ampoo

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#69

Sep 5 2017 08:52am

Quote (Knaapie @ 5 Sep 2017 14:25)

Is that even a thing in the US ? or are you projecting your own German resentment on the US ?

DACA seems to be about: if we should keep toddlers responsible for immigrating illegally. If we want to criminalize them for being carried over the border having no say in the situation.

I lolled about the $500,- / 2 years. :Pay to not become a criminal.. Only in the US ^^

You were so close, so you see the good points, agree with the policy and then want to get rid of it. #almostmadesense

as i said, not allowing this is to protect the children from their parents actions, illegal migrants are abusing their children as leverage
it has become a common tactic around the world to undermine the law that way
thats the thing the left does not understand and people fender (cute rant btw) simply refuse to acknowledge is that western states were not built on feelings, but laws and facts
where is this going when everyone gets special treatment?

for me there are only the solutions to stop this completely or make it clear that they might stay while their illegal parents and family have to leave
dividing families isnt exactly my favorite option

@fender

there are no upsides when it comes to illegal migration, no matter how hard you twist the facts
i mean you are right know in the madness of this, can you really state ONE upside? you cant

This post was edited by ampoo on Sep 5 2017 08:54am

PlasmaSnake101

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#70

Sep 5 2017 08:53am

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 5 2017 06:36am)

As a Nevada voter, I can tell you why Trump lost here. The lack of a unified party (and that Harry Reid/culinary union money). When Gov. Brian Sandoval, Rep. Joe Heck, Sen. Dean Heller, Rep. Cresent Hardy and other tops of the Republican party ran from Trump in the election, it blew up all Republican hope for the state. Mitt Romney even showed up in Northern Nevada with a handful of candidates to all denounce Trump. A lot of Republicans stayed home, a lot voted Trump and none for all the other offices. The shame is good candidates, like Danny Tarkanian, also lost their races due to party issues. Michael McDonald tried to unite but he's not very effective. I was working as a turf organizer for the Nevada GOP through September, and in just that month so much went wild. Trump loyalists and anti-Trumpers were at each other's throats. Joe Heck removed all Trump material from his local campaign office and severed ties. Half the people working for the GOP advised the phone bankers to drop Trump and just focus on local races.

The lack of a unified front is what kills us. And the GOP still hasn't learned.

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