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May 4 2023 09:42am
Quote (JessiWan @ May 4 2023 12:19am)
This is proof that laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work.

Some people want the state to control everything, while others want the government to get out of the markets completely. I am middle of the road. I think the government should try and let the markets develop on their own, however they should step in when people's economic actions are starting to hurt others, or when greed gets out of control.


healthcare in america is perhaps the most regulated industry in the world and insulin is so costly here because of a government granted monopoly.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on May 4 2023 09:42am
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May 4 2023 09:43am
Quote (cambovenzi @ May 4 2023 10:42am)
healthcare in america is perhaps the most regulated industry in the world and insulin is so costly here because of a government granted monopoly.


why dont diabetics stop being lazy and just produce their own insulin, i do. every day. without even trying.
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May 4 2023 11:52am
Quote (cambovenzi @ May 4 2023 10:42am)
healthcare in america is perhaps the most regulated industry in the world and insulin is so costly here because of a government granted monopoly.


Nah, it's costly because if you don't get it you die.

The demand for insulin is inelastic. Econ 101 tells you that if the demand is inelastic then traditional supply demand curves don't apply.

But yall only want to use econ 101 when it supports business in fucking over the workers.


Unless you really want to argue that regulations bringing the price to produce insulin up to a few cents per dose is why it costs hundreds a month

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on May 4 2023 11:55am
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May 4 2023 12:01pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 4 2023 12:52pm)
Nah, it's costly because if you don't get it you die.

The demand for insulin is inelastic. Econ 101 tells you that if the demand is inelastic then traditional supply demand curves don't apply.

But yall only want to use econ 101 when it supports business in fucking over the workers.


Unless you really want to argue that regulations bringing the price to produce insulin up to a few cents per dose is why it costs hundreds a month


it's as elastic as feet are optional. you've got 2 afterall, and crutches are cheap.
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May 4 2023 11:01pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 4 2023 01:52pm)
Nah, it's costly because if you don't get it you die.

The demand for insulin is inelastic. Econ 101 tells you that if the demand is inelastic then traditional supply demand curves don't apply.

But yall only want to use econ 101 when it supports business in fucking over the workers.


Unless you really want to argue that regulations bringing the price to produce insulin up to a few cents per dose is why it costs hundreds a month


'Econ 101' and he doesn't know what supply is.
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May 5 2023 10:59pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 3 2023 11:00pm)
I'm making a strong claim because it's well substantiated over the past 30 years of research. When you look at every level, from national to local, you find at best a small and inconsistent change in employment as a result of minimum wage increases.

The reason is pretty simple. Workers produce income for the business. If your worker produces $50 for you, and you have to pay them $7, you aren't going to hire fewer people if you now have to pay them $10. They're on aggregate income-generating tools. You already want to expand your business as much as you can with as few workers as possible, and workers are still making you a healthy profit.

Here's an actual peer reviewed article that comes to the same conclusion using national level data (I've noticed this is a trend. When you say something that is overwhelmingly supported in the scientific literature like, modest minimum wage increases don't decrease employment, or illegals on average commit significantly less crime, conservatives retort with crap tier studies from non-peer reviewed journals and then claim you can't really control for everything)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/irel.12267

Yeah you can cherry-pick studies to find a consistent decrease in employment, but the reason for that is pretty simple. It's a small impact that hovers around zero. Even with no significance you would expect random variation to produce a certain amount of papers above a 5% or 10% confidence threshold in the negative direction.


Your claim is that rises in the minimum wage have no consequence on unemployment, and that this has been widely acknowledged for a period no less than 30 years. That would be news to both the PhDs who write the textbooks and the PhDs who teach economics courses themselves; and it would be news to the the PhD economists who write and publish in peer-reviewed academic journals.

Your second claim is that Alabama could easily absorb a ~$15 minimum wage, which would place Alabama's minimum wage / median wage ratio well above that of France. Given France's well-documented struggles with youth unemployment and unemployment in general, that should be news to everyone.

Neumark (the author of the paper I first linked) is a well known, well published economist who responded directly to the 1992 paper you mentioned in your first post. If you want to hand-wave away the opinion of everyone who disagrees with what you want to be true, you shouldn't take it personally when no one takes you very seriously.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3863757#references-widget
https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jep.35.1.51
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/711355

What's interesting is that even when no employment effect is found, its often not to the employee's benefit, as in California, where increases to the minimum wage led to lower hours per employee (but more employees scheduled) so that net pay minus benefits was roughly equivalent.

Quote
The reason is pretty simple. Workers produce income for the business. If your worker produces $50 for you, and you have to pay them $7, you aren't going to hire fewer people if you now have to pay them $10. They're on aggregate income-generating tools. You already want to expand your business as much as you can with as few workers as possible, and workers are still making you a healthy profit.


Even very successful businesses that utilize fairly described slave labor have net profit margins at a fraction of a fraction of the example above. When you increase the price of labor, and the cost of the product must remain stagnant (i.e. elastic demand), the marginal product of labor and the marginal cost of labor both change. That in turn can lead to decreased employment, although as I said earlier, businesses can often find creative ways around that by manipulating local regulations to their benefit.
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May 6 2023 12:16am
Quote (bogie160 @ May 5 2023 11:59pm)
Your claim is that rises in the minimum wage have no consequence on unemployment, and that this has been widely acknowledged for a period no less than 30 years. That would be news to both the PhDs who write the textbooks and the PhDs who teach economics courses themselves; and it would be news to the the PhD economists who write and publish in peer-reviewed academic journals.

Your second claim is that Alabama could easily absorb a ~$15 minimum wage, which would place Alabama's minimum wage / median wage ratio well above that of France. Given France's well-documented struggles with youth unemployment and unemployment in general, that should be news to everyone.

Neumark (the author of the paper I first linked) is a well known, well published economist who responded directly to the 1992 paper you mentioned in your first post. If you want to hand-wave away the opinion of everyone who disagrees with what you want to be true, you shouldn't take it personally when no one takes you very seriously.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3863757#references-widget
https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jep.35.1.51
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/711355

What's interesting is that even when no employment effect is found, its often not to the employee's benefit, as in California, where increases to the minimum wage led to lower hours per employee (but more employees scheduled) so that net pay minus benefits was roughly equivalent.

Even very successful businesses that utilize fairly described slave labor have net profit margins at a fraction of a fraction of the example above. When you increase the price of labor, and the cost of the product must remain stagnant (i.e. elastic demand), the marginal product of labor and the marginal cost of labor both change. That in turn can lead to decreased employment, although as I said earlier, businesses can often find creative ways around that by manipulating local regulations to their benefit.


You seem to be ceding that minimum wage increases do not decrease employment, which was the scope of my claim.

If this isn't an accurate assessment, you should really remove your second link, because it cedes the point. And honestly, it's been so well established that minimum wage increases do not decrease employment that there's no reason to argue about it. It doesn't. The research really is that clear.

If you want to move on to talk about other ways firms change in response to minimum wage increases we can do that, but I really need you to be clear on the point we started with.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on May 6 2023 12:17am
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May 6 2023 01:24am
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May 10 2023 03:11pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ May 6 2023 02:16am)
You seem to be ceding that minimum wage increases do not decrease employment, which was the scope of my claim.

If this isn't an accurate assessment, you should really remove your second link, because it cedes the point. And honestly, it's been so well established that minimum wage increases do not decrease employment that there's no reason to argue about it. It doesn't. The research really is that clear.

If you want to move on to talk about other ways firms change in response to minimum wage increases we can do that, but I really need you to be clear on the point we started with.


Not really.

The second link is to say that increasing the minimum wage impacts the supply / demand curve and that companies respond to that in a myriad of ways. In non-tradeable sectors, it might be possible to pass costs almost entirely to the consumer, which results in price increases. In tradeable sectors, it may lead to a decrease in employment, except where companies can successfully manipulate hours so as to reduce costs with no impact to total hours worked. In the latter case, that certainly isn't an argument for the minimum wage, because no one is better off.
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May 10 2023 03:23pm
Quote (thesnipa @ May 4 2023 11:43am)
why dont diabetics stop being lazy and just produce their own insulin, i do. every day. without even trying.


jfc
:rofl:
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