While that dont forget to inform you about the biggest gas reservoir of europe, ty.

Its one of those things the US has memory holed hard. We publicly recognized the pre-Maidan elections as legitimate and lawful and democratic. That stands in contrast to the 2004 elections which were annulled after being rejected as rigged, but we called it a fair democracy by 2010. So both the US/EU and Russia were in agreement on Ukraine being a legitimate democracy. Then Euromaidan happened, and the west magically recognized a revolutionary regime as legitimate because it was pro-west, Russia obviously did not. Russia recognized the separatist regions as independent and both administered and called legitimate their referendums, we rejected them.

penis_hat raised the question of what it would look like in another timeline if Ukraine had slowly leaned more towards the EU naturally, and democratic support went to our side. Perhaps Russia would have been the ones to intervene first in Ukraine to retain them, the likely outcome. But the fact is, America did first. And so we're left with this unreconcilable position where all we can do is memory hole the fact that Ukraine was a legitimate democracy in our eyes one day and oops overthrown in an insurrection by the minority the next and somehow we're still champions of democracy. And so Joe Biden gets up every speech about Ukraine and reminds us how we're defending democracy itself against Russian aggression.

Oh boy you're intentionally leaving out a whole shit load of Russian interference.

As if elections being legitimate in 2010 means Russia did nothing the next 4 years and didn't start actively interferring with Ukraine after one of the largest natural gas deposits in history was discovered in the black sea around Crimea.

It's funny how tactful you are about leaving details out. It's honestly impressive the mental gymnastics you do to avoid looking at the whole picture on literally every issue.

And the US did nothing in those 4 years? And the Russians and Chinese did nothing to interfere in domestic US politics for that matter? Guess that justifies the Trumpster's insurrection, right?
They had a legitimate democracy. It was aligned with Russia and in a close relationship with Russia. It entertained- and rejected- an understanding agreement to align with the EU.

And you probably can't see how self-interested Ukrainian nationalists could pragmatically choose to stay aligned with Russia when Russia makes clear its willingness to intervene to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence, while the west makes tepid overtures. Because I wasn't the only person in 2014 who could predict the outcome of this fiasco, and certainly had less reason to concern myself with their fate. There were radicals like Joe Biden's he-who-must-not-be-named whistleblower chomping at the bit to provoke Russia, because they were myopic morons leading their countrymen to their doom. Lord forbid a leader like Yanukovych actually puts the interests of his people above those of the Americans. Maybe he actually saw what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq and Yemen and Libya and was unfolding in Syria and knew where the road led.

Just stopped here because you just acknowledged what I said is true.

You're selectively bringing up US involvement and refusing to even mention Russian actions. If you had any integrity you would have acknowledged Russian actions in addition to US actions but you don't so you don't

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Mar 24 2023 12:08am

it's literally the next sentence though

but no one is jumping ina gorilal suit

your anecdote is supremely off base

and you are a russian sympathetiser its pathetic enough to have to type to you calling yourself an american

How would the American Revolution have gone if the French hadn't offered support? Perhaps well, perhaps not. It's hard to say what would have happened if Russia hadn't interfered. What I'd imagine is some small popular uprising that gets put down by military force. But Russia did get involved, and the people of Donetsk and Crimea were apparently glad for the support. The principal casualties between 2014-2022 on the Russian side were Ukrainian nationals. If that doesn't tell you that the Donbass isn't necessarily occupied, I don't know what does.

It's possible to accept that Russia is a bad faith actor with poor goals and at the same time accept that Crimea and the Donbass, or at least large portions of Donetsk and Luhansk, wanted to be a part of Russia if push came to shove. It's eminently believable, if not only because a majority speaks Russian and they see Russia as having a much higher standard of living.



This is an embarrassing post and you should feel bad for having posted it.

This post was edited by bogie160 on Mar 24 2023 06:19pm

he is the one defending russia and talking shit about the us in every single post