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Aug 15 2021 07:08am
Quote (excellence @ Aug 14 2021 11:19pm)
“So the question now is, where do they go from here?” Biden said in July about the Taliban’s failure to negotiate a deal with the Afghan government. “The jury is still out. But the likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/07/08/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-drawdown-of-u-s-forces-in-afghanistan/

brainless swamp demon voted us into this mess and got it wrong yet again

https://mobile.twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214


I don't blame Biden for the decision to exit the country, but expectations for the withdrawal were delusional. If maintaining a functioning Afghani state was a priority at all, negotiations had to be concluded before the United States withdrew.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Aug 14 2021 10:59pm)
You know why they're backwards in terms of religion, ideology and mores? It's because they've been almost continuously occupied for like 60 years. That shit doesn't evaporate over night. We equipped and trained their military, but we didn't give them a country to fight for. We just bombed shit and were surprised that the military jumped ship instead of standing to fight. Why would they fight? They've seen that their country will remain a battleground.

You're looking at this in very one-dimensional terms. Sustainable structures don't grow organically from nothing in a short time frame. But you can plant seeds in the form of infrastructure, education, and material well-being and allow them to sprout. We basically dropped a seed and then trampled over it and said "why isn't this growing?"


Afghanistan has always been a poor, backwards, secluded place. Tribal politics and tribal revolts have played a decisive role in Afghanistan's history. It was not a "state" in the true sense of the word for the majority of its history. The monarchy tried to foster nationalist feeling and institute reforms, but they never truly succeeded, and like various Russian czars, reformist rulers were often killed before their reforms could take root. The constant civil wars, communist revolution, Soviet occupation, warlord rule, and Taliban rule didn't help, but the Soviet occupation was a response to Afghani instability, not the other way around. The Soviet Union was a major provider of aid and development to Afghanistan well before Afghani communists seized control of the state. It was communist infighting that led to the Soviets occupying the country, and communist reforms (e.g. the education of women) that, like monarchist reforms before it, led to internal resistance and the mujahideen. In turn, corrupt warlord rule led to the rise of the Taliban.

Boiling these things down to "60 years of occupation" is to take a simplistic, one-dimensional view of Afghani history. For the most part, the problems which afflict Afghanistan are Afghani problems. It's hard to build a state when tribal leaders have so much power, and yet tribal leaders are themselves a local government response to instability and lack of central control. It's hard to build stable political coalitions among ethnic groups that have never been part of a cohesive whole. Europe had to work this out over centuries of political and religious warfare. The mostly peaceful development of democratic capitalism in England was a process that took place over hundreds of years. In most cases, modernization fails many more times than it succeeds.
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Aug 15 2021 09:22am
From what I've read on Twitter:

- Afghan president has relinquished power, and fled the country
- Taliban are closing in on Kabul, some of their forces may be in the city
- US embassy is evacuating

A hot mess, no doubt about it. Since the withdrawal was announced, I was unsure whether it was the right move to leave. But either way, a serious failure of US planning.

This has to be the biggest fuck up of Biden's presidency so far, right?
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Aug 15 2021 09:51am
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Aug 15 2021 09:55am
Quote (IceMage @ Aug 15 2021 11:51am)


Yes the devastating failure of your wars is the fault of people who were right the whole time. Good one.
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Aug 15 2021 09:57am
Quote (bogie160 @ 15 Aug 2021 06:08)
I don't blame Biden for the decision to exit the country, but expectations for the withdrawal were delusional. If maintaining a functioning Afghani state was a priority at all, negotiations had to be concluded before the United States withdrew.

Afghanistan has always been a poor, backwards, secluded place. Tribal politics and tribal revolts have played a decisive role in Afghanistan's history. It was not a "state" in the true sense of the word for the majority of its history. The monarchy tried to foster nationalist feeling and institute reforms, but they never truly succeeded, and like various Russian czars, reformist rulers were often killed before their reforms could take root. The constant civil wars, communist revolution, Soviet occupation, warlord rule, and Taliban rule didn't help, but the Soviet occupation was a response to Afghani instability, not the other way around. The Soviet Union was a major provider of aid and development to Afghanistan well before Afghani communists seized control of the state. It was communist infighting that led to the Soviets occupying the country, and communist reforms (e.g. the education of women) that, like monarchist reforms before it, led to internal resistance and the mujahideen. In turn, corrupt warlord rule led to the rise of the Taliban.

Boiling these things down to "60 years of occupation" is to take a simplistic, one-dimensional view of Afghani history. For the most part, the problems which afflict Afghanistan are Afghani problems. It's hard to build a state when tribal leaders have so much power, and yet tribal leaders are themselves a local government response to instability and lack of central control. It's hard to build stable political coalitions among ethnic groups that have never been part of a cohesive whole. Europe had to work this out over centuries of political and religious warfare. The mostly peaceful development of democratic capitalism in England was a process that took place over hundreds of years. In most cases, modernization fails many more times than it succeeds.


1. Trump made the decision to exit Afghanistan, not Biden. Biden violated the terms Trump's Administration negotiated. As a result, instead of a measured withdrawal that includes all the people, all the equipment, every US resource, and some of the Afghanis that worked the most closely with the US, many resources were left behind, much equipment was left behind, and everyone from our puppet government officials to Afghan Security to basic translators... And their families... Are now looking at being massacred.

2. Afghanistan spent over thirteen hundred years as a proud Islamic Theocracy. No matter which "rulers" ruled, they've been proud, very nationalist, and maintained the culture of Islam. They've defeated the British, the Russians, and now the Americans. They are VERY familiar and comfortable with their culture and way of life.

3. Afghanistan and it's people are not worried about "occupation". They have experienced nothing but hard times for a thousand years. It's a great nation full of strong men that is constantly beset by nations experiencing great times and full of weak men.

The primary concern right now is that there are some 300K security forces, plus government officials, translators, collaborators, etc. And their families. You're talking millions of people who're very likely to be massacred. And nobody fears Biden's threat that the US will "act" if the Taliban does what they are predicted to do. The Biden Administration has no teeth.
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Aug 15 2021 10:01am
Quote (cambovenzi @ Aug 15 2021 11:55am)
Yes the devastating failure of your wars is the fault of people who were right the whole time. Good one.


The point


Your head
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Aug 15 2021 10:07am
Quote (IceMage @ Aug 15 2021 12:01pm)
The point


Your head


Not at all.

I correctly identified the slimy and intellectually dishonest attempts to insult and place blame on the people who were against your neocon death cult rather than those actually responsible.

He wants to pretend anti-interventionist ideology is built on 'an emotional slogan' instead of recognizing the actual arguments and the overwhelming failures of his neocon policies and wars.
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Aug 15 2021 10:40am
Quote (IceMage @ Aug 15 2021 11:51am)


Only people to blame are the Afghanis themselves.

Size of Afghani army: 180k

Size of Taliban: 75k

The Afghani army was literally trained for 20 years, given advanced weapons, etc. They folded like a lawn chair. There literally was zero resistance. The local tribes leaders are also to be blamed. If even a fraction of them decided to stand up and band together against the Taliban they wouldn't have a chance.

The anti-interventionalist argument is actually built on logic derived from utilitarianism. There was never a chance to win the war so why waste our tax payer dollars and American lives for a country that has no interest in their own well being? Even 'winning' would have provided a near zero benefit for 99% of Americans.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Aug 15 2021 10:42am
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Aug 15 2021 11:04am
i still support the decision to leave, everything that happens now was inevitable and everyone who believed something else is an idiot

however its absolutely comical how quickly the collapse happened, we spent 20 years training these afghan fucks and they surrender the country in a month without a fight

you are now officially more pathetic than the frenchies

its almost like the taliban reinvented blitzkrieg
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Aug 15 2021 11:49am
The Afghan pullout isn't advantageous for America. I think Biden is just doing it as a bragging point for 2024.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Aug 15 2021 12:40pm)
Only people to blame are the Afghanis themselves.

Size of Afghani army: 180k

Size of Taliban: 75k

The Afghani army was literally trained for 20 years, given advanced weapons, etc. They folded like a lawn chair. There literally was zero resistance. The local tribes leaders are also to be blamed. If even a fraction of them decided to stand up and band together against the Taliban they wouldn't have a chance.

The anti-interventionalist argument is actually built on logic derived from utilitarianism. There was never a chance to win the war so why waste our tax payer dollars and American lives for a country that has no interest in their own well being? Even 'winning' would have provided a near zero benefit for 99% of Americans.


I think deep down, most Afghani's want the taliban. Their culture still celebrates stone-age philosophies.
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