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Nov 16 2023 12:12pm
Quote (ferdia @ Nov 16 2023 12:09pm)
Can you not just say: yes, the Israeli leader wants revenge.


you're lost. a massive number of their people died, of course they want revenge. humans aren't simply coded NPC's.

post after post YOU are the one who presents revenge as their ONLY goal. ignoring the clear actions towards their larger stated goal to prevent another October 7th.

but over and over and over i keep reading these opinions of people who agree "israel bad", not one of them has an actual alternative plan. not one. its all nay saying.

if they dont clear out the northern half of gaza city hamas wins. its that simple. if u can admit that u just want hamas to get away with it i'll be impressed. say it, say u want all of the terrorists to just live and go one with their lives and plan another attack.
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Nov 16 2023 12:13pm
Quote (ferdia @ 16 Nov 2023 19:24)
The point here is that the retribution/revenge/vengeance or whatever you want to call it, is an order of magnitude (in deaths) worse then the crime. if 1 of ours is killed lets kill 10 of theirs, or 100 or 1000, its an order of magnitude.


Its not criminal offense its war
The numbers mean nothing
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Nov 16 2023 12:14pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 12:07pm)
incorrect, imo. the plan is to ignore how many terrorists you create. but instead prevent terrorists, no matter how many, from mounting another attack.

whether there are 10k hamas soldiers or 200k hamas soldiers. if the are pushed further south and tunnels are destroyed, with a DMZ eventually created, it doesnt matter how many they are. they wont get through again.

then once safety is assured, the dome's effectiveness increases markedly and the border is manned. then they can get back to the abraham accords and working in the west bank where the gap is workable.


That is a really foolish plan, imo

Actually Undermining Hamas and actually dismantling the cause would be more effective, if long term peace is the actual goal

Where there is a will there is a way. Isis was worse than al Quaeda. It might be 1, 5, 20, 50 years but something will happen again if that’s the actual plan
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Nov 16 2023 12:14pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 06:12pm)
you're lost. a massive number of their people died, of course they want revenge. humans aren't simply coded NPC's.

post after post YOU are the one who presents revenge as their ONLY goal. ignoring the clear actions towards their larger stated goal to prevent another October 7th.

but over and over and over i keep reading these opinions of people who agree "israel bad", not one of them has an actual alternative plan. not one. its all nay saying.

if they dont clear out the northern half of gaza city hamas wins. its that simple. if u can admit that u just want hamas to get away with it i'll be impressed. say it, say u want all of the terrorists to just live and go one with their lives and plan another attack.


you said this:

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 05:37pm)
and their goal is revenge, because you say it's revenge. lol.


I provided quotes from the victims of the hamas attack, and a video of Israel's leader specifically calling for revenge and you tell me that I am lost.

you are making an incorrect assumption that my view is that revenge is Israel's only goal. if you read my posts in this topic you would see it is my view that:

1. Israel wants to destroy the cave network under northern gaza (this is pretty clear)
2. Israel does not want a 2 state solution (i honestly have no clue what long term, credible, peaceful, solution Israel wants for Gaza)
3. Israel wants to de radicalize the people of gaza (and appears happy for them to live in tents).
4. Israel is not directly targeting civilians but is attack extensively civilian infrastructure, and adopting collective punishment, guilty by association

killing 11000+ people will not help in trying to achieve point 3.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 16 2023 12:21pm
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Nov 16 2023 12:21pm
Quote (Bazi @ Nov 16 2023 12:14pm)
That is a really foolish plan, imo

Actually Undermining Hamas and actually dismantling the cause would be more effective, if long term peace is the actual goal

Where there is a will there is a way. Isis was worse than al Quaeda. It might be 1, 5, 20, 50 years but something will happen again if that’s the actual plan


peace is a fun ideal, but its not always feasible. i dont think peace was ever an option with hamas in control, and neither does israel, presumably. i dont think right now peace is the goal at all, safety, but not peace.

Quote (ferdia @ Nov 16 2023 12:14pm)
you said this:



I provided quotes from the victims of the hamas attack, and a video of Israel's leader specifically calling for revenge and you tell me that I am lost.


post, after post, after post. you keep saying "their goal is this". reply after reply you state the one goal and ignore the other.

your posts have been incredibly biased. taking evacuation calls and saying this means they want to clear out all of gaza, holy stretch.

revenge is their goal, ignoring actual security concerns and legitimate military goals they've already accomplished.

repeating buzzword twitter NPC phrases.

all of that's fine if you just admit you want hamas to get away with it. i do. i'd rather terrorists crawl back into the comfortable tunnels they came from and plan their next attack. or i'd prefer israel doesnt bomb at all and clears everything on the ground even if it means hundreds or thousands of IDF deaths.

and i can say all of that and maintain that gaza city residents if they dont support hamas are complete idiots for staying if they have any literal option to leave. 2 working legs and you're not working in a hospital, than you're a moron to be there.
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Nov 16 2023 12:22pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 06:21pm)
peace is a fun ideal, but its not always feasible. i dont think peace was ever an option with hamas in control, and neither does israel, presumably. i dont think right now peace is the goal at all, safety, but not peace.



post, after post, after post. you keep saying "their goal is this". reply after reply you state the one goal and ignore the other.

your posts have been incredibly biased. taking evacuation calls and saying this means they want to clear out all of gaza, holy stretch.

revenge is their goal, ignoring actual security concerns and legitimate military goals they've already accomplished.

repeating buzzword twitter NPC phrases.

all of that's fine if you just admit you want hamas to get away with it. i do. i'd rather terrorists crawl back into the comfortable tunnels they came from and plan their next attack. or i'd prefer israel doesnt bomb at all and clears everything on the ground even if it means hundreds or thousands of IDF deaths.

and i can say all of that and maintain that gaza city residents if they dont support hamas are complete idiots for staying if they have any literal option to leave. 2 working legs and you're not working in a hospital, than you're a moron to be there.


where does ANYONE in this thread support Hamas, wtf ? and you say I am stretching ? Also, There are ample reports of people trying to flee the hospital and being fired upon. If you believe Israel has goals other then the ones I posted above, enlighten me. If you ignore Turkey, I cant think of any western leader or country, supporting Hamas after their attack.

and where do you want them to go, "Israel warns Palestinians to flee parts of southern Gaza" <-- today.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 16 2023 12:25pm
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Nov 16 2023 12:24pm
Quote (ferdia @ Nov 16 2023 12:22pm)
where does ANYONE in this thread support Hamas, wtf ? and you say I am stretching ? Also, There are ample reports of people trying to flee the hospital and being fired upon.


use the bold so i can figure out which part you misread.
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Nov 16 2023 12:26pm
Quote (Bazi @ 16 Nov 2023 19:41)
The bolded are fairly contradictory

Do you know how much fluid a burn or amputated victim needs? How much fluid a septic patient needs?

There are a reason we have specialized burn units in America which are fewer than a third of all hospitals.

Nobody dies of “thirst” necessarily, but you die from renal failure from volume depletion amongst other organ failures


Hamas should have sent them to the south
Quote (ferdia @ 16 Nov 2023 20:09)
Can you not just say: yes, the Israeli leader wants revenge, as quoted by him. is this too much to ask? Are you saying its incorrectly translated?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wquCRPxaHdU

https://i.imgur.com/pcMHZCA.png

Quote (ferdia @ 16 Nov 2023 19:53)
Oh, allow me to quote then:

“Everyone is talking about unity. Guys, unity is terribly beautiful, but in the field there is revenge, and there is cruelty … We will have our whole lives to grieve, and we will grieve. But now, there is only one goal: to take revenge and to be cruel.”

These were the words of Israeli reserve soldier Guy Hochman — usually an entertainer and online influencer — in an interview on Channel 12 in the first days of Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip following the Oct. 7 massacres by Hamas militants. In just a few words, Hochman captured the sentiment that appears to have taken hold in Israel, from the far right all the way to many who self-identify as leftists: justification of the catastrophe that Israel is currently wreaking on more than 2 million Palestinians in Gaza.

Some are explaining their justification in terms of “defeating Hamas.” Others, like Hochman, are putting sweeping revenge above all else. It is thus all the more remarkable that, in the face of the prevailing political mood, more and more of those Israelis who survived the massacres, or whose loved ones were killed or kidnapped to Gaza, are coming out and expressing unequivocal opposition to the killing of innocent Palestinians, and saying no to revenge. In a eulogy for her brother Hayim, an anti-occupation activist who was murdered in Kibbutz Holit, Noi Katsman called on her country “not to use our deaths and our pain to cause the death and pain of other people or other families. I demand that we stop the circle of pain, and understand that the only way [forward] is freedom and equal rights. Peace, brotherhood, and security for all human beings.”

Ziv Stahl, executive director of the human rights organization Yesh Din, and a survivor of the hellfire in Kfar Aza, also came out strongly against Israel’s assault on Gaza in an article in Haaretz. “I have no need for revenge, nothing will return those who are gone,” she wrote. “Indiscriminate bombing in Gaza and the killing of civilians uninvolved with these horrible crimes are no solution.”

https://www.972mag.com/israeli-survivors-hamas-massacre-revenge/

so no, not because I say its revenge, because the victims of the terrorist attack say its revenge. They are on the ground, they can see it for what it is.

more links:

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/these-israeli-survivors-dont-want-revenge/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/29/revenge-not-a-policy-say-relatives-of-hamas-victims/

and headlines:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-vows-mighty-vengeance-against-hamas-2023-10-07/
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-vows-mighty-vengeance-against-hamas-2023-10-07/

"Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed ‘mighty vengeance’ as he stepped up air strikes on the Strip "

I trust the point has been well made, but if not:

“[Palestinians] are beasts, they are not human.” - Then-deputy minister of religious services and current deputy minister of defense, Rabbi Eli Ben-Dahan, 2013.
“What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy?... They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.” - Current minister of justice, Ayelet Shaked, quoting a former settler activist and speechwriter and advisor for Netanyahu, 2014.
"Our soldiers are the only innocents in Gaza. Under no circumstances should they be killed because of false morality that prefers to protect enemy civilians. One hair on the head of an Israeli soldier is more precious than the entire Gazan populace, which elected the Hamas and supports and encourages anyone who murders Israelis." – Then-deputy speaker of the Israeli parliament (Knesset) from Netanyahu's Likud party, Moshe Feiglin, 2014.
"The Palestinian threat harbors cancer-like attributes that have to be severed. There are all kinds of solutions to cancer. Some say it's necessary to amputate organs but at the moment I am applying chemotherapy."- Then-general and current defense minister, Moshe Yaalon, 2002.
"[The way to deal with Palestinians is to] beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up so it hurts so badly, until it's unbearable." – Benjamin Netanyahu, current prime minister, while in the opposition following his first term as prime minister, caught on video speaking to Israeli settlers, 2001.


It did work with Chechnia and russia.


Israel goal is to end hamas a terrorist organization on their borders.
And to make sure no baby, kid, teenager, parents and grandparents have to endure october 7th again.

Now let me be a clear is I possibly can
We all want revenge trougg the core of our bodies, we feel violated, we feel shame, we are horrified humans can do what Hamas has done.
Yet unlike you I guess, I dont feel the urge to go and kill people.

This will never happened again and sinwar end will be the same as sadam and bin laden.
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Nov 16 2023 12:28pm
Quote (ferdia @ 16 Nov 2023 20:14)
you said this:



I provided quotes from the victims of the hamas attack, and a video of Israel's leader specifically calling for revenge and you tell me that I am lost.

you are making an incorrect assumption that my view is that revenge is Israel's only goal. if you read my posts in this topic you would see it is my view that:

1. Israel wants to destroy the cave network under northern gaza (this is pretty clear)
2. Israel does not want a 2 state solution (i honestly have no clue what long term, credible, peaceful, solution Israel wants for Gaza)
3. Israel wants to de radicalize the people of gaza (and appears happy for them to live in tents).
4. Israel is not directly targeting civilians but is attack extensively civilian infrastructure, and adopting collective punishment, guilty by association

killing 11000+ people will not help in trying to achieve point 3.


If the goal was revenge we would bomb them like the US did in Iraq
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Nov 16 2023 12:29pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 06:24pm)
use the bold so i can figure out which part you misread.


Ok lets try a different way:

All of that's fine if you admit that Israel is ethnic cleansing the Palestinians.

The statement above is in direct response to your comment, and should not be responded to. I am merely trying to highlight how the below, from you, is like the above, i.e. an inappropriate and misleading statement.

Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 16 2023 06:21pm)
all of that's fine if you just admit you want hamas to get away with it.


Indirectly suggesting what you believe my thoughts are on a point when nowhere in the thread have I done anything other then condemn hamas, is poor form. i.e. NO ONE supports Hamas in this thread, they should be destroyed, but Israeli method flawed.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 16 2023 12:31pm
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