the naturalistic model makes the assertion that thing keep getting better with the grand building up process ('evolution)

the creation model says the place is in degradation (sin) and is in a downward process

which model best explains democrats?

The deranged model.

kinda makes you wonder huh? "the war on terror" making all those war refuges, then the borders wide open. kinda looks like a scam?

That image is poor taste and infantile logic. The biggest mistake was not removing Saddam in the first Gulf War.

This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Sep 13 2023 03:21am

Chances are that removing Saddam in 1991 would have seen a similarly disastrous outcome as it did in 2003. There were no democratic structures in the country and it's deeply divided along ethnic and secular lines. Creating a power vacuum in such a place is a recipe for disaster. In the absence of a better alternative, it was imho the right play to leave a weakened Saddam in power in 91. Re-opening this can of worms in 03 was the biggest FP blunder of the US in 50 years.

I personally believe removing Saddam was necessary, unfortunately nation building is not the forte of the US. And Iraq itself never had the required state institutions or capacity to transfer from dictatorship to democracy. The obvious contrast would be Iran. Which is a millennial culture with thousands of years of consecutive existence; And despite its portrayal has the secular and democratic capacity to succeed if the Mullahs were removed.
Also I think its about perspective. For an Iraqi living under Saddams regime thats 12 years living in tyranny, if you survived at all; It truly was one of the most oppressive regimes in modern history.

Absolutely not saying what followed Saddams removal was a success, it clearly was not. It only goes back to the root of the problem in the lack of an Iraqi state.

I should add that I recently watched a Hitchens speech ominously titled the Axis of Evil and alot of the ideas resonate with myself. Around 18 minutes he addresses the main crux of this;



This post was edited by Prox1m1ty on Sep 13 2023 06:52am

Has US nation building ever succeeded outside of post-war Germany and Japan (which had both already been among the most affluent and advanced nations on the planet before they turned into villains during the 1930s)?


That I can wholeheartedly agree with! Iran is the one place I have the highest hopes for if they could get rid of their theocratic regime. It's also the reason why I initally supported Obama's Iran deal, basically thinking it's worth a try and might lead to a strengthening of Iran's civil society. As it turned out, the Mullah regime used the financial breathing room Obama had afforded them to ramp up their proxy wars in Syria and Yemen and destablize the Middle East even further.

The trouble with Iran is that the IRGC is effectively a state within a state, with a renter like stranglehold on the economy. The natural evolution of Iran is more likely to be towards Egypt than a hypothetical civil democracy.