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Sep 13 2012 11:53pm
I'd like to take a shot at your first challenge, but I'm afriad I don't quite understand how we can definitely measure beauty, value, and eloquence. Can you please show me a method to evaluate these things objectively?
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Sep 14 2012 12:45am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Sep 14 2012 05:53am)
I'd like to take a shot at your first challenge, but I'm afriad I don't quite understand how we can definitely measure beauty, value, and eloquence.  Can you please show me a method to evaluate these things objectively?


Challenge #1: Produce a Surah (Chapter) equal in Beauty, Literary Value, Eloquence (etc) like the Qur'an.

Since you want to attempt to take this challenge, I will give you a short synopsis and explanation:

"Say: Verily, though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another." / Qur'an 17:88

"And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones." / Qur'an 2:23-24

"Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Qur'ân)?" Nay! They believe not! (33) Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful." / Qur'an 52:33-34

As you can clearly see in these noble verses, Allah (God) has given mankind clear references that even if all of us (men) AND Jinn joined forces, we would NEVER be able to prodice anything like the Noble QUr'an. Allah clearly declares that if we cannot produce anything like it, then we should fear the Hell-fire, who's fuel is men and stones.

Now when Allah, in His eternal Wisdom/Intelligence gives us such challenges indicating that we cannot come up with any volume, or even small portion of a volume equal to His Holy Book, He is simply telling us that we cannot produce a Book, or even a Chapter, which talks about the afterlife, metaphysics, ethics, morals, science, in the same manner of the Noble and Holy Qur'an, and that Book/Chapter must be totally free from errors, discrepancies, and of course contradictions/scientific inaccuracies.

Further confirmation here:

"And this Qur'ân is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allâh (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation)[] which was before it [i.e. the Taurât (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel)], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinn,and all that exists). (37) Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a Sûrah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allâh, if you are truthful!" / Qur'an 10:37-38

The Qur'an was revealed in 23 years, yet it has no contradictions.

The revelation of the Qur'an lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Qur'an openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

**********************************************

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا ﴿٨٢

Afala Yata-dabaroona Al-Qur'an Walaw Kana Min ,Indi
Ghayr Ellah Lawajadoo Feehi Ikhtilafan Katheera


Do they not consider the Qur'an with care? Had it been from anyone other than
Allah, they would have found in it many discrepancies/contradictions.


Holy Qur'an, Surah An-Nisa' (4), Verse 82

**********************************************

Nothing can compare to The Qur'an's style, beauty, and eloquence.

The Qur'an is beyond comparison from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Qur'an form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Qur'an, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others. No-one’s literary masterpiece, including the sayings of the Prophet himself (pbuh), can compete with the Qur'an.

The Qur'an also challenged the experts in poetry.

In the period when the Qur'an was revealed, in addition to eloquence, poetry and oratory enjoyed great prestige in the Arabian peninsula. They used to hold poetry competitions and the poems of the winners were written in gold and hung on the wall of the Ka‘ba. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was, as everybody knows, unlettered, and no one had heard him say even a couple of poetry. However, the Qur'an also challenged the known experts in these fields and forced them to surrender. When those who persisted in unbelief heard the Qur'an, they were captivated by it. Nevertheless, in order to prevent the spread of Islam, they labelled it as something magical and advised people not to listen to it. But when those, like Hansa and Lebid, who believed in the Qur'an, gave up inventing poetry after the Qur'an’s revelation in respect for and awe of its styles and eloquence, the unbelievers had to confess: “If we call it a piece of poetry, it is not. If we designate it a piece of rhymed prose, it is not. If we describe it as the word of a soothsayer, it is not.” At times, they could not help listening to the Prophet’s recitation secretly at night but they could not overcome their arrogance and so believe in its Divine origin.

Arabic became very rich through the Qur'an and attained a very high level. Despite the high level of poetry reached at that time, the Arabic vocabulary was not that advanced at the same degree. It was difficult, even impossible, to express in it metaphysical ideas or scientific, religious, and philosophical concepts. Restricted to the words and expressions to explain the thoughts and feelings of desert men and the simple life they led, this language became so rich through the Qur'an and attained such a high level, that it developed as the language of the most magnificent civilization of world history with all its scientific, religious, metaphysical, literary, economic, juridical, social, and political aspects. It is impossible for an unlettered one to prepare the ground for such a philological revolution unparalleled in human history.

Despite its apparent simplicity, the Qur'an has such depths of meaning that everyone from the commonest of people to the most high-ranking scholar, scientist and literary man, finds his share in it. The Qur'an is such a Book that it illuminates the ways of both poets, musicians and orators, sociologists, psychologists, scientists, economists and jurists. Also, the founders of all the true spiritual orders and the schools of law and conduct found in it the principles of their orders and schools. The Qur'an has shown everybody the ways to solve their problems. It also satisfies everyone in his spiritual quests. Is there another book of the same character, quality, and level anywhere next to the Qur'an?

The answer is a clear no! But then again, I leave that up to you to decide...


This post was edited by poulgaragr on Sep 14 2012 12:49am
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Sep 14 2012 04:46am
Quote (poulgaragr @ Sep 13 2012 09:40pm)
Whoever makes fun of ANY of the Prophets of God is automatically an enemy to God, and his recompense shall be the eternal Hell-fire, as he/she is a disbeliever

As simple as that.

When you die, you will see how right I am.

It is up to you to die a disbeliever or a believer.

Believer = Sunni Muslim

Disbeliever = all else


...except that's for god to decide, not sunny Muslims. Certainly not whatever a Greek Muslim is supposed to be.


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Sep 14 2012 05:02am
Quote (sylvannos @ Sep 14 2012 08:46pm)
...except that's for god to decide, not sunny Muslims. Certainly not whatever a Greek Muslim is supposed to be.


Id be more inclined to believe in a system of religion if they didnt automatically relegate every one who didnt believe in their own to hellfire.
A god who created us and knows every little thing we are going to do would have no reason to judge, and he certainly wouldnt have given us free will without the intent of us making use of it.
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Sep 14 2012 05:13am
Quote (Lifebane99 @ Sep 14 2012 03:02am)
Id be more inclined to believe in a system of religion if they didnt automatically relegate every one who didnt believe in their own to hellfire.
A god who created us and knows every little thing we are going to do would have no reason to judge, and he certainly wouldnt have given us free will without the intent of us making use of it.


For me it's more of the hilarity of watching an unstoppable force collide with an immovable object. Every religion will say theirs is the right one and there's no compromise on the matter. This creates an interesting situation, to say the least.

I mean, there's this thread saying you have to be a Sunni. There's one right below saying you have to be a Christian. And neither of then realize how much their belief systems overlap.
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Sep 14 2012 05:16am
Quote (sylvannos @ Sep 14 2012 09:13pm)
For me it's more of the hilarity of watching an unstoppable force collide with an immovable object. Every religion will say theirs is the right one and there's no compromise on the matter. This creates an interesting situation, to say the least.

I mean, there's this thread saying you have to be a Sunni. There's one right below saying you have to be a Christian. And neither of then realize how much their belief systems overlap.


I agree.
And thats why i laugh at the jewish god based belief systems, if its a universal message direct from god, why is there like 150 different sects?
And every one of them thinks the other 149 are going to hell.

This post was edited by Lifebane99 on Sep 14 2012 05:16am
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Sep 14 2012 05:29am
Quote (poulgaragr @ Sep 14 2012 01:45am)
Challenge #1: Produce a Surah (Chapter) equal in Beauty, Literary Value, Eloquence (etc) like the Qur'an.

Since you want to attempt to take this challenge, I will give you a short synopsis and explanation:

"Say: Verily, though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another." / Qur'an 17:88

"And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful. (23) And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones." / Qur'an 2:23-24

"Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it (this Qur'ân)?" Nay! They believe not! (33) Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful." / Qur'an 52:33-34

As you can clearly see in these noble verses, Allah (God) has given mankind clear references that even if all of us (men) AND Jinn joined forces, we would NEVER be able to prodice anything like the Noble QUr'an. Allah clearly declares that if we cannot produce anything like it, then we should fear the Hell-fire, who's fuel is men and stones.

Now when Allah, in His eternal Wisdom/Intelligence gives us such challenges indicating that we cannot come up with any volume, or even small portion of a volume equal to His Holy Book, He is simply telling us that we cannot produce a Book, or even a Chapter, which talks about the afterlife, metaphysics, ethics, morals, science, in the same manner of the Noble and Holy Qur'an, and that Book/Chapter must be totally free from errors, discrepancies, and of course contradictions/scientific inaccuracies.

Further confirmation here:

"And this Qur'ân is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allâh (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation)[] which was before it [i.e. the Taurât (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel)], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinn,and all that exists). (37) Or do they say: "He (Muhammad SAW) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a Sûrah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allâh, if you are truthful!" / Qur'an 10:37-38

The Qur'an was revealed in 23 years, yet it has no contradictions.

The revelation of the Qur'an lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Qur'an openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

**********************************************

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا ﴿٨٢

Afala Yata-dabaroona Al-Qur'an Walaw Kana Min ,Indi
Ghayr Ellah Lawajadoo Feehi Ikhtilafan Katheera


Do they not consider the Qur'an with care? Had it been from anyone other than
Allah, they would have found in it many discrepancies/contradictions.


Holy Qur'an, Surah An-Nisa' (4), Verse 82

**********************************************

Nothing can compare to The Qur'an's style, beauty, and eloquence.

The Qur'an is beyond comparison from the viewpoint of its styles and eloquence. All the sentences, words and even letters used in the Qur'an form such a miraculous harmony that, with respect to rhythm, music, and even geometric proportions and mathematical measures, and with respect to how many times each is used in the whole of the Qur'an, each is in the exact place it must be and interwoven and interrelated with others. No-one’s literary masterpiece, including the sayings of the Prophet himself (pbuh), can compete with the Qur'an.

The Qur'an also challenged the experts in poetry.

In the period when the Qur'an was revealed, in addition to eloquence, poetry and oratory enjoyed great prestige in the Arabian peninsula. They used to hold poetry competitions and the poems of the winners were written in gold and hung on the wall of the Ka‘ba. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was, as everybody knows, unlettered, and no one had heard him say even a couple of poetry. However, the Qur'an also challenged the known experts in these fields and forced them to surrender. When those who persisted in unbelief heard the Qur'an, they were captivated by it. Nevertheless, in order to prevent the spread of Islam, they labelled it as something magical and advised people not to listen to it. But when those, like Hansa and Lebid, who believed in the Qur'an, gave up inventing poetry after the Qur'an’s revelation in respect for and awe of its styles and eloquence, the unbelievers had to confess: “If we call it a piece of poetry, it is not. If we designate it a piece of rhymed prose, it is not. If we describe it as the word of a soothsayer, it is not.” At times, they could not help listening to the Prophet’s recitation secretly at night but they could not overcome their arrogance and so believe in its Divine origin.

Arabic became very rich through the Qur'an and attained a very high level. Despite the high level of poetry reached at that time, the Arabic vocabulary was not that advanced at the same degree. It was difficult, even impossible, to express in it metaphysical ideas or scientific, religious, and philosophical concepts. Restricted to the words and expressions to explain the thoughts and feelings of desert men and the simple life they led, this language became so rich through the Qur'an and attained such a high level, that it developed as the language of the most magnificent civilization of world history with all its scientific, religious, metaphysical, literary, economic, juridical, social, and political aspects. It is impossible for an unlettered one to prepare the ground for such a philological revolution unparalleled in human history.

Despite its apparent simplicity, the Qur'an has such depths of meaning that everyone from the commonest of people to the most high-ranking scholar, scientist and literary man, finds his share in it. The Qur'an is such a Book that it illuminates the ways of both poets, musicians and orators, sociologists, psychologists, scientists, economists and jurists. Also, the founders of all the true spiritual orders and the schools of law and conduct found in it the principles of their orders and schools. The Qur'an has shown everybody the ways to solve their problems. It also satisfies everyone in his spiritual quests. Is there another book of the same character, quality, and level anywhere next to the Qur'an?

The answer is a clear no! But then again, I leave that up to you to decide...


Circular reasoning ftw.

"The Koran is the most beautiful thing ever written, it says so in the Koran".

Idiotic and unworthy of a true response.

Please leave the arena of people who agree to abide by the minimum standards of rational conversation.
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Sep 14 2012 05:35am
I'll repost since you never answered. It will become quite silly soon if you don't, since I'll keep reposting every now and then until I actually get a straight answer.

Its a matter of who is to be blamed for disbelief. Does disbelief originate in the individual or does it come from allah?

Quote ((6:12))
It is they who have lost their own souls, that they will not believe

Quote ((10:100))
No soul can believe except by the will of Allah

It's quite obvious why these are contradictory.

If they're snatched out of context I would like you to provide the proper context and explain why its needed.
If they're mistranslated I would like you to attempt a proper translation.

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Sep 14 2012 05:40am
Quote (Blodulf @ Sep 14 2012 05:35am)
I'll repost since you never answered. It will become quite silly soon if you don't, since I'll keep reposting every now and then until I actually get a straight answer.

Its a matter of who is to be blamed for disbelief. Does disbelief originate in the individual or does it come from allah?



It's quite obvious why these are contradictory.

If they're snatched out of context I would like you to provide the proper context and explain why its needed.
If they're mistranslated I would like you to attempt a proper translation.


Obviously, the answer is that the will of Allah leads people to believe, but disbelievers do so on their own.

This post was edited by AEtheric on Sep 14 2012 05:41am
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Sep 14 2012 05:46am
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