so you're saying the 'rebellion' charges (made by spanish courts) against more than a dozen catalonian political leaders are reasonable, even though they were exposed to be bogus concerning the most prominent offender (puigdemont) by a court that couldn't be more independent and has NO interest whatsoever in either helping or hurting the political cause or the people involved?

and although i sure appreciate the effort (despite being somewhat ironic coming from the person who was so desperate to make a false equivalence claim earlier), i think we both know that 'defying rajoy and his friends' is a bit different when it comes to hospital legislation, as opposed to this highly politicised matter that created international attention and directly concerns the government's approach to the whole independence issue.

i like your 'optimism' and we will see how this turns out (most likely in a way that will severely punish catalonian leadership while at the same time allowing some government spin of claiming it was totally fair, legitimate, and justified - that's how it usually goes), but given the ridiculous nature of even the charges, i sincerely doubt they will get an objectively fair treatment...




his xenophobia is so bad that he would gladly hand over power to any authoritarian or "strong leader" who promised him to be tough on immigration (as evident from his support for the politically entirely incompetent pied pipers from the AfD). i mean seriously, when you start rooting for "reasonable" leadership in countries like hungary and poland, you should know you have completely lost it. let's just hope he goes to live there, we really don't need any more brownshirts here in germany, we've been through that, and all they brought was misery and hate. we need solutions, not empty end-of-the-world and war-of-cultures rhetoric...

fenderp and sauci, try to name a more iconic duo here
defenders of the wicked

of course i expected nothing but ridiculous and unfounded accusations and retarded exaggerations



imagining things again? the government enforcing existing law would be good enough for me, but why am i telling to that to antifa morons



says it all really, when personal feelings suddenly become evidence
there is a difference between not agreeing with others and them not being competent, some more stupid conjecture



feel free any kind of evidence why they are not reasonable
democratically elected with overwhelming results for making politics in favor of their own people and they never have violated their own laws like angela merkel did when she let everyone into our country

god, this is so retarded



indeed and the solution for illegal migrants is that they have to leave, but that does make me a nazi so what is it now
i have always wondered what mister fenderps opinion is, but we cant know since all he has ever done is spreading hate against all those voicing their suggestions



couldnt agree more, too bad people like fenderp are actually fueling their agenda with ridiculous moralism and political correctness



meanwhile in reality

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/hartz-iv-jeder-10-bezieher-in-deutschland-stammt-aus-syrien-15528906.html

syrians (or supposed syrians) alone already make up around 10% of our welfare recipient by now (not including foreigners in total who are at 34,3% overall, 2,03 million out of 5,93 million) people with migrant background, but german passport are not included, that will be another signifant portion
hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers without official status getting benefits are also not included

588.301 syrians, so for a quick estimate (children, spouses etc will get slightly less, i know) they are at 416€ per month --->244733216€ or in words 244,7 million
housing etc comes extra and will certainly come around at the same number, if not more, but lets go with the same amount here

that makes 5,87 billion per year for illegal and unemployed (what a suprise) syrians alone
did i mention that free health care is also part of the package? one can only guess how much that might be so 5,87 billion is not the end of it and this is only one group of migrants with many more joining once their asylum procedure is concluded
so back to the earlier "point"



the german state not being able to pay for all of this, which will result in a financial collapse, is a mathematic fact and not end of the world rhetoric

but rest assured, hundreds of thousands of educated, working germans are already leaving and if things dont improve massively i can see myself doing the same thing
https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/abwanderung-auf-hoechststand-immer-mehr-deutsche-verlassen-das-land-statistiker-haben-unerwartete-erklaerung_id_8610231.html

replacing productive citizens with illiterates from the middle east, but hell yeah fewer nazis!!!111!!

This makes you the cry baby, each and every single time. Just like Excellence, btw. Stupid communists hurr durr, bullshit.

Get over it: this is (s)PaRD(a). *kick*

This post was edited by Knoppie on Apr 10 2018 07:48am

Wow, you cherrypicked one of the 4 cases I linked to, ignoring the fact that two of them were about the "highly politicized matter" of the catalan case, and that in both of these events the judge told Rajoy to piss off.

I do not judge judiciary matters... I respect the outcomes, whether I like them or not, and it is not my duty to interpret them. Remember that the court here hasn't declared anybody guilty of rebellion... the prosecution pressed those charges on the accused, and the judge considered that the room for interpretation of rebellion was wide enough to not automatically rule it, and decided to investigate it. This doesn't mean the judge will declare them guilty of rebellion at all... in fact if we look back at the case against former catalan president Artur Mas, who was prosecuted for disobeying several judiciary decisions, he was cleared of several charges (such as embezzlement, which would have sent him to jail). So there's absolutely no reason to believe that being charged with something will result on being declared guilty of that crime.

The spanish judge decided to not rule out rebellion off the bat, while the german one did. Who was right or wrong is not something I feel technically prepared to judge, and unless we have a law professional here, none of us probably can. However, what is interesting is that the german judge could have really screwed Puigdemont with this decision. The reason for this is that the accused are all charged with embezzlement, sedition and rebellion, but the sedition charge is nulled if rebellion is also pressed on the accused, as it overruns it based on an established judiciary charged hierarchy. Meaning, that here he would have been only trialed for embezzlement and rebellion, and if the judge eventually decided that he's innocent of the charge of rebellion because he didn't directly participate in violent acts, he would be only sentenced for embezzlement. But now if our judge changes the arrest order to sedition instead of rebellion, he will be prosecuted for that, and there'd be much less of a chance of him being left off the hook (as there is no prerequisite of any form of violence).

Many law experts here criticized our prosecutor for pressing the charges of rebellion instead of sedition, precisely because of this... it's a risky and very open to interpretation accusation, and while some say it's justified, otheres don't... there is no consensus. All this has lead many to believe that Rajoy wants to avoid the catalan leaders serving a long sentence, and asked his prosecutor to press rebellion charges because there was more of a chance that they'd be cleared of it. Remember what I told you was in the last link I posted... the prosecutor asked for those accused that promised to not flee and accept to be under special control and survailance protocols, to be let out of jail for now, but the judge refused. The government has a much weaker stance against the accused than the judge, and Rajoy wants to avoid as much hassle as possible. Remember that it had to be the Supreme Court that ordered Rajoy to send the police to Catalonia and stop the referendum, and it was our king who had to publicly come out and demand for laws to be respected (prompting Rajoy to finally trigger article 155)... Rajoy was just hoping to be able to keep looking away and do nothing, as he always does. Meanwhile the judges don't do what Rajoy wants or doesn't want, they simply stick to their jobs: enforcing the law, without taking into account political matters. They will be as strict as their interpretation of the law tells them, and that's why they've ignored the prosecutors pleas to let the accused out of jail for now... it was obviously a good decision, looking at how a few days later Marta Rovira (who had yet to be officially prosecuted), fled to Switzerland a few hours before she had a hearing scheduled.

Fender Fender, the conversation ender.

A truly ethical fender bender

Honestly, despite high turnout being a good thing, I don't think it's "great news for democracy" that a guy has two-thirds majority, once again enough to single-handedly change the constitution, when he only got 48% of the votes. Especially when he has used that ridiculous two thirds majority in the past to do things such as change the electoral system strongly in his favour (much less seats per constituency, and more seats in the areas where his party is favoured), take away power from the judiciary branch and making it much more dependent on the executive branch, reducing freedom of press, etc...

No doubt that Orbán is a popular and backed leader, but the amount of power he has with less thant 50% of the votes is ridiculous, and his constitutional reforms are an abomination for what should be the basic democratic standards of a EU member state.

what a spectacular case of projection. YOU cherry-picked 4 cases (neither of which generated international attention even remotely close to this one btw, mr. 'false equivalence') to 'prove' how independent the spanish justice system can be - even though in this particular case it's evident (as by the german court's decision) that not even the 'best' case for the rebellion accusations warranted the charges made by the spanish justice system - yet somehow you manage to accuse ME of cherry-picking for refering to one of the cases YOU provided? that's truly mind-blowing, i honestly did not see that coming...

and again, i hope you're right about this, but i don't share your optimism. just based on how one-sided the spanish justice system is trying to 'resolve' this, charging more than a dozen catalonian officials with 'rebellion', a catalonian police chief for standing down, but on the other hand not even a single police official for the violence agains peaceful civilians. i don't think any reasonable person who does not have a dog in this fight would look at that and conclude it's even close to just...

I didn't cherry pick anything, these are the 4 results that pop up in the first 5 pages of Google. I can give you the search functions I used, if you want, so you can judge if I left some out just to "cherry pick". Stop it with your baseless accusations and assumptions.

The last two cases are part of the whole separatist crisis thing, so once again, stop acting like they aren't related. If these decisions didn't generate international attention that is irrelevant... there weren't many people interested in this whole thing until the 1st of October, and that interest dropped again a few days later. International media isn't going to broadcast every detail of what is going on... they'll broadcast whatever will sell papers to their audience.

You weren't there but fender somehow was, he knows.

This post was edited by Helloween7 on Apr 10 2018 01:03pm