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Apr 6 2018 11:59pm
Quote (fender @ 7 Apr 2018 01:53)
already inb4'd the flimsy 'b-b-but it's just a joke' excuse. if there's one thing even worse than a bigoted nazi-sympathiser, it's a bigoted nazi-sympathiser who doesn't even have the balls to stand by their (disgusting) words when called out (and not backed up by an overwhelming force of fellow bigots), claiming they didn't actually mean it...

that being said, hardly a surprise to see the alleged 'rule of law' proponent mourn a court's decision just because the party defied is a close ally - as if that makes them right by default and a ruling against them a "lack of respect" rather than an objective finding (i bet even zark doesn't see it that way). that's a truly disturbing understanding of law in general, where 'respect' and 'relation' trump principle and objectivity...



personally i'm not 'worried' about him or his threats. like i stated before, he's OBVIOUSLY not right in the head. i'm just saying it shows the massive bias and emotional involvement that, although of course not as radical as in this particular nutjob, a lot of anti-separatists seem to have, resulting in apologetic rhetoric concerning textbook authoritarian measures and a categoric refusal to accept ANY kind of blame on "their" side.
it's also fascinating because we all know that if a deranged muslim fanatic made such comments (and i think the reason this actually reached germany is because he not just ranted and said what he personally liked to do, but called for action - and broke a taboo of most civilised cultures with his comments about guests as potential hostages) this surely would have been treated differently - and pointing out his attention-seeking and questionable mental health would have been dismissed as cheap excuses or even sympathising with terrorists. not by you, don't get me wrong, but there are plenty of 'special' people here doing that regularly...

concerning the 'dilemma' spanish justice finds itself in regarding puigdemont, this just shows how desperately they are trying to make these political arrests SEEM legitimate, while at the same time trying to punish catalonian political leaders as harshly as possible.
to the vast majority of people outside of spain it's pretty obvious that the rebellion charges are objectively bogus, the real violence was ordered and executed by madrid - but i don't expect that to prevent your courts from finding them guilty anyway. who knows, maybe your courts are truly independent (in germany for example, the highest instances regularly defy the government and make insanely principled decisions) and will give them a fair trial, but i'm not too optimistic...


You can't really call some crazy random radio host and journalist who hates everything and everyone that doesn't think the way he does "the anti-separatist camp". Comparing it to the other side just doesn't work too well, because this guy is just some individual who likes trolling and setting the world on fire, with no relationship to the government, or any unionist institution.

I mean, you won't see any politician on the unionist side now calling for a referendum to exit the EU based on this decision (like this crazy journalist has done). Meanwhile, on the catalan's government side it isn't some random radio host that is calling for chaos... remember that Puigdemont was calling the EU a "corrupt association of decaying nations" and saying that he would like Catalonia to consider exiting the union, after the EU said that they wouldn't take part in any negotiations with Catalonia as that was a Spanish internal affair. Also, the radical propaganda institutions like ANC that promote fake history are given public money and voice on catalan public media, and "youth groups" like Arran that call for street violence and pressure on unionist politicians belong to and receive money from parties like the CUP.

The ideas Losantos defends aren't defended by any party inside the spanish parliament. The radicalism on the unionist side definitely exists, but it has no official voice and it is not supported in any way by the government or any relevant authorities or organizations. Meanwhile on the other side, it is promoted with public funds and supported by many of the people, parties and organizations that support separatism...

Comparing them is a false equivalence.
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Apr 7 2018 04:23am
Quote
'i never said they were wrong, i just said it's sad that 'respect' does not outweigh objectiveness, that we don't support political arrests committed by our allies.' yes, that's much better...

also, the good old 'just voting for a legal party - so how can i be a nazi-sympathiser?' argument is as dodgy as it gets. despite the misinformation and misrepresentation by some ignorant people in this forum it's NOT illegal to be a bigot, a racist, and an anti-semite in germany. and the AfD has a particularly rich history in that, despite its relatively short existence. i can deal with that, to each their own, the only people who can't 'deal with it' are those that don't even have the balls to admit it, hiding behind flimsy 'arguments' like 'how can it be racist if it's legal?'...

just a few results in english, obviously there are plenty more in german concerning the ties to NPD and the identitarian movement... putting on a show for people who are not familiar with german politics is one thing, but the reality of AfD's neo-nazi relations / rhetoric / sympathies / similarities can't be hidden...


in former discussions i clearly pointed out that i dont approve of certain nonsense in the party
there is no need to hide anything despite the stupid accusations, its actually the opposite and many idiots have already been kicked out

i wonder when i have EVER denied problems or tried to do so, another case of imagining things

with the same retarded "logic" the only party you can vote for are the liberals
the green party and social democrats openly cooperate with antifa and praise people/organisations that are left wing extremists, not to mention that high profile greens are marching on "germany you piece of shit" demonstrations
merkels party tolerated NSDAP members for decades and many you call nazis in the afd have also been long term members
the leftist party brings terrorists to parliament to work for them

so for mister fenderp all these supporters and voters are automatically extremist supporters (which they are not obviously)

ah shit, i forgot that they are the good guys and fellow antifa buddies of yours

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/heiko-maas-lobt-feine-sahne-fischfilet-und-erntet-kritik-a-1109533.html
https://www.bayernkurier.de/inland/8411-claudia-roth-auf-abwegen/
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article152410328/Linke-Abgeordneter-beschaeftigt-Ex-RAF-Terrorist-Klar.html

Quote (zarkadon @ 7 Apr 2018 07:59)
You can't really call some crazy random radio host and journalist who hates everything and everyone that doesn't think the way he does "the anti-separatist camp". Comparing it to the other side just doesn't work too well, because this guy is just some individual who likes trolling and setting the world on fire, with no relationship to the government, or any unionist institution.

I mean, you won't see any politician on the unionist side now calling for a referendum to exit the EU based on this decision (like this crazy journalist has done). Meanwhile, on the catalan's government side it isn't some random radio host that is calling for chaos... remember that Puigdemont was calling the EU a "corrupt association of decaying nations" and saying that he would like Catalonia to consider exiting the union, after the EU said that they wouldn't take part in any negotiations with Catalonia as that was a Spanish internal affair. Also, the radical propaganda institutions like ANC that promote fake history are given public money and voice on catalan public media, and "youth groups" like Arran that call for street violence and pressure on unionist politicians belong to and receive money from parties like the CUP.

The ideas Losantos defends aren't defended by any party inside the spanish parliament. The radicalism on the unionist side definitely exists, but it has no official voice and it is not supported in any way by the government or any relevant authorities or organizations. Meanwhile on the other side, it is promoted with public funds and supported by many of the people, parties and organizations that support separatism...

Comparing them is a false equivalence.


that already shows how far from reality these separatists are, the EU has always made it clear that a catalonian state wouldnt even considered being part of the union in the first place

too many facts for fenderp btw

This post was edited by ampoo on Apr 7 2018 04:23am
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Apr 7 2018 05:45am
a rich history (despite its short existence) of racially charged and outright xenophobic rhetoric, widespread anti-semitism, and close ties to neo-nazi organisations and individuals on ALL levels of the party don't magically disappear by creating flimsy and outright laughable whataboutisms concerning other parties. everyone knows what the AfD, including their CURRENT leadership, is all about and they aren't even trying to be subtle about it. dog-whistling doesn't have to be particularly sophisticated these days, just pretend you're 'just saying what no one else dares to say' and 'trying to protect our society and culture in this war against it' apparently does the trick and has plenty of simple-minded and innately fearful people following them.

but hey, whenever you're not amongst you fellow brownshirts you can still pretend it's just 'certain nonsense' - very much like 'herrenrasse', suggesting 'zyklon b treatments', and claiming your race is 'superior to africans' are just 'jokes / facts / innocent nonsense'...


Quote (zarkadon @ 7 Apr 2018 06:59)
You can't really call some crazy random radio host and journalist who hates everything and everyone that doesn't think the way he does "the anti-separatist camp". Comparing it to the other side just doesn't work too well, because this guy is just some individual who likes trolling and setting the world on fire, with no relationship to the government, or any unionist institution.

I mean, you won't see any politician on the unionist side now calling for a referendum to exit the EU based on this decision (like this crazy journalist has done). Meanwhile, on the catalan's government side it isn't some random radio host that is calling for chaos... remember that Puigdemont was calling the EU a "corrupt association of decaying nations" and saying that he would like Catalonia to consider exiting the union, after the EU said that they wouldn't take part in any negotiations with Catalonia as that was a Spanish internal affair. Also, the radical propaganda institutions like ANC that promote fake history are given public money and voice on catalan public media, and "youth groups" like Arran that call for street violence and pressure on unionist politicians belong to and receive money from parties like the CUP.

The ideas Losantos defends aren't defended by any party inside the spanish parliament. The radicalism on the unionist side definitely exists, but it has no official voice and it is not supported in any way by the government or any relevant authorities or organizations. Meanwhile on the other side, it is promoted with public funds and supported by many of the people, parties and organizations that support separatism...

Comparing them is a false equivalence.


that's why i specified 'a lot' of people in the anti-separatist camp and clearly pointed out that most of them are not THAT radical. that being said though, just because he has no official ties with the central government, and just because he has some other radical ideas, doesn't mean he's not anti-separatist. he clearly is, you're trying to create a condition that is not at all required to justify my evaluation. and just like the government won't charge any of the violent police officers but make an example of one that chose to stand down, it seems like a lot of people in the anti-separatist camp are also refusing to accept any blame on their side...

also, it clearly is not necessary for an 'official' anti-separatist propaganda channel to exist. that side holds all the power, outright dictates policy and official interpretation of that matter, and simply implements their ideas - like physically suppressing a referendum, making political arrests on bogus charges, outright denying catalonia any negotiations about a realistic way out - just 'democracy' things. i mean seriously, how naive would you have to be to expect the other side to play completely 'fair' against that?

and just to be clear, because i know some people struggle with the distinction: i pointed out in previous discussions that i'm personally NOT a friend of puigdemont, his course of action, his rhetoric, or by extension everything the catalonian separatists do. what i'm saying is that i understand where they coming from and that i completely oppose the way spain goes about this. again, just because i support a general RIGHT to self-determination (or at the very least a REALISTIC political path to it) does not mean i favour catalonian independence itself, in fact i really don't.

so while i appreciate the effort, i think it's somewhat ironic that you had to create a such a strawman in order to suggest a false equivalent, not a single person compared this nut job to anything on the other side until you did. also, nice dodge on the political arrests and spain's expected misuse (or at the very least incredibly one-sided charges in that matter) of the justice system in order to punish the catalonian side...
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Apr 7 2018 09:24am
oh look some false equivalences and more repetitions of the same wrong arguments
and of course a COMPLETE dodge

oh well, but why am i even trying to talk with antifa where literally everyone is a nazi....

This post was edited by ampoo on Apr 7 2018 09:27am
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Apr 7 2018 02:16pm
Quote (fender @ 7 Apr 2018 13:45)
a rich history (despite its short existence) of racially charged and outright xenophobic rhetoric, widespread anti-semitism, and close ties to neo-nazi organisations and individuals on ALL levels of the party don't magically disappear by creating flimsy and outright laughable whataboutisms concerning other parties. everyone knows what the AfD, including their CURRENT leadership, is all about and they aren't even trying to be subtle about it. dog-whistling doesn't have to be particularly sophisticated these days, just pretend you're 'just saying what no one else dares to say' and 'trying to protect our society and culture in this war against it' apparently does the trick and has plenty of simple-minded and innately fearful people following them.

but hey, whenever you're not amongst you fellow brownshirts you can still pretend it's just 'certain nonsense' - very much like 'herrenrasse', suggesting 'zyklon b treatments', and claiming your race is 'superior to africans' are just 'jokes / facts / innocent nonsense'...




that's why i specified 'a lot' of people in the anti-separatist camp and clearly pointed out that most of them are not THAT radical. that being said though, just because he has no official ties with the central government, and just because he has some other radical ideas, doesn't mean he's not anti-separatist. he clearly is, you're trying to create a condition that is not at all required to justify my evaluation. and just like the government won't charge any of the violent police officers but make an example of one that chose to stand down, it seems like a lot of people in the anti-separatist camp are also refusing to accept any blame on their side...

also, it clearly is not necessary for an 'official' anti-separatist propaganda channel to exist. that side holds all the power, outright dictates policy and official interpretation of that matter, and simply implements their ideas - like physically suppressing a referendum, making political arrests on bogus charges, outright denying catalonia any negotiations about a realistic way out - just 'democracy' things. i mean seriously, how naive would you have to be to expect the other side to play completely 'fair' against that?

and just to be clear, because i know some people struggle with the distinction: i pointed out in previous discussions that i'm personally NOT a friend of puigdemont, his course of action, his rhetoric, or by extension everything the catalonian separatists do. what i'm saying is that i understand where they coming from and that i completely oppose the way spain goes about this. again, just because i support a general RIGHT to self-determination (or at the very least a REALISTIC political path to it) does not mean i favour catalonian independence itself, in fact i really don't.

so while i appreciate the effort, i think it's somewhat ironic that you had to create a such a strawman in order to suggest a false equivalent, not a single person compared this nut job to anything on the other side until you did. also, nice dodge on the political arrests and spain's expected misuse (or at the very least incredibly one-sided charges in that matter) of the justice system in order to punish the catalonian side...


I didn't mean to dodge anything. It was early morning and I had a busy day ahead of me, and I didn't have time to tackle your whole post. I wanted to share some news with you, but I didn't have the time to gather links, but now I do:

https://www.eldiario.es/politica/Rajoy-confianza-Montoro-Tribunal-Constitucional_0_652335888.html
https://www.elboletin.com/noticia/159160/nacional/reves-del-supremo-al-plan-de-listas-de-espera-de-cifuentes:-anula-varios-pactos-de-gestion.html
http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20180125/consejo-estado-niega-gobierno-haya-base-para-impugnar-ahora-investidura-puigdemont/1666821.shtml
https://www.libertaddigital.com/espana/2018-03-22/reves-del-supremo-al-gobierno-forn-se-queda-en-prision-1276615932/

They're in spanish, but I'm sure google translate can help. They are all example of cases where the court slammed Rajoy and his friends, just over the last year. There have been more instances, but the main ones keep popping up as I click on more and more search result pages, so I'll just settle with these 4 examples. The courts here do challenge the government on a pretty regular basis.

The first case involves the Constitutional Court saying that the tax amnesty Rajoy's Minister of Finances, Montoro, came up with a few years ago was illegal, and nulled it. This was a pretty big deal here and created quite the shitstorm.
The second one involves the Supreme Court throwing away the change in legislation in hospitals, because it would supposedly reduce worker's rights. It was a pretty big hit for the proponent of the idea, the Madrid region governor Cristian Cifuentes, and for the whole PP party as it exposed once again that they were trying to push their neoliberal agenda too far.
The last two ones involve the catalan case... and the government got screwed on both occasions! The first one was after they tried to stop Puigdemont from being chosen as a candidate to be re-elected president, and the last one is when the judge investigating the whole case decided to keep the politicians imprisoned due to a risk of fleeing (the government had asked for them to be released but kept under strict surveillance, with their passports revoked, and having to undergo a weekly control, so along as they promised to abide the law and not flee).

So there is really no reason to believe that the separatists aren't going to have a fair trial, or that the government controls justice and are guaranteed to get what they want.
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Apr 8 2018 04:58pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43693663

orban in hungary reelected, probably with a two-thirds majority and the highest voter turnout in over 20 years
if there is one good thing about the trouble in europe in the last few years, all of it has led to more participation, which is great news for our democracy

so despite many media outlets projecting a loss of votes, it is a comfortable result

i guess sticking to the basics and putting hungary first, which is actually job description of politicians (something western politicians seem to have forgotten) was rewarded by the people, what a suprise

orban is certainly not the saviour of europe that he would like to be, but a voice of reason that is fighting the EU migrant madness is always welcome
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Apr 10 2018 01:10am
Adolf pointing out the "migrants madness" thanks... More shit please... Hungary would. collapse if eu cut credits btw.

=======

had some. fun reading this today


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-markets-treasuries/japanese-investors-dump-record-amount-of-u-s-bonds-in-february-idUSKBN1HG0C4


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Apr 10 2018 01:12am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Apr 9 2018 11:10pm)
Adolf pointing out the "migrants madness" thanks... More shit please... Hungary would. collapse if eu cut credits btw.

=======

had some. fun reading this today


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-markets-treasuries/japanese-investors-dump-record-amount-of-u-s-bonds-in-february-idUSKBN1HG0C4


>euro union thread
>trump REEE
I pray allah takes you last, my friend
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Apr 10 2018 01:23am
Quote (tonerbond @ 10 Apr 2018 08:12)

I pray allah takes you last, my friend


shalom gringo bueheheh
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