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Oct 14 2014 01:08pm
Quote (Voyaging @ Oct 14 2014 01:59pm)
See the rest of my post :P

Consciousness is a feature of the world. Hedonic tone is a feature of certain conscious systems. Positive hedonic tone has intrinsic value within a conscious system and negative hedonic tone has intrinsic anti-value within a conscious system.

Morality is merely a concept used to describe the nature of value. "Valuable" (i.e. good) states of mind are intrinsically a part of the world, a real part of the world, in exactly the same way that atoms and molecules are part of the world.


okay... but they're not the same for everyone right? sadism, masochism etc.

how do you derive an objective moral standard from any of this?
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Oct 14 2014 01:16pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Oct 14 2014 03:08pm)
okay... but they're not the same for everyone right? sadism, masochism etc.

how do you derive an objective moral standard from any of this?


With masochism, I think it's the same, it's just that they get pleasure from a different thing than most people, and so for them the pleasure might outweigh the pain.

With sadism is where it gets tricky. I'm not trying to argue in favor of any ethical theory (although I think some form of utilitarianism is correct). I really don't know which is correct, though. I'm just trying to argue against moral nihilism or subjectivism or relativism.

I don't know what all the moral facts are, I'm not sure anyone does, I just know that there are some.

This post was edited by Voyaging on Oct 14 2014 01:16pm
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Oct 14 2014 01:17pm
Quote (Voyaging @ 14 Oct 2014 18:31)
There is nothing more real about my own mind than yours, even though it might appear that way to me. Since we both have minds, and we can both suffer, etc., we are both equally important.

This idea is to eliminate ethical egoism as being an option, because up til that point the argument could've gone either way. By eliminating the incorrect idea that I am any more special than anyone else, the conclusion is that everyone that's a subject of experience is a moral end, to different degrees depending on the extent of their experience.



Whether beings are capable of being objective is another discussion entirely. Even if no being can be, that doesn't mean there aren't objective moral values.

Objective moral values could exist independently of our consciousness, but only if there is consciousness elsewhere in the world. Morality is contingent on there being conscious beings. Without consciousness, morality is meaningless. I'm not trying to say it's some kind of absolute, unchanging truth, it changes as the world changes.




What makes trees more real than, say, the pleasure of sex?


Well that's my point. We can reason that they could exist but we cannot say with certainty that they do and nor can we ascertain what they may be if they did. Their existence is pointless to argue because they are not a part of our reality and never can be.

Never said they were less real. But that pleasure is subjective. Some feel it more than others and in different ways brought about by different activities with different partners. There is no 'objective sexual pleasure' just as no human can hold 'objective moral values'.

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Oct 14 2014 01:20pm
Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 10:17pm)
Their existence is pointless to argue because they are not a part of our reality and never can be.

that's awfully spiritual for an atheist :O

Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 10:17pm)
Some feel it more than others and in different ways brought about by different activities with different partners. There is no 'objective sexual pleasure' just as no human can hold 'objective moral values'.

are there things that we ought to do?
would a world with everyone suffering the maximum amount of suffering all the time be a better world (/ a good world)?

This post was edited by Gastly on Oct 14 2014 01:22pm
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Oct 14 2014 01:23pm
Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 03:17pm)
Well that's my point. We can reason that they could exist but we cannot say with certainty that they do and nor can we ascertain what they may be if they did. Their existence is pointless to argue because they are not a part of our reality and never can be.

Never said they were less real. But that pleasure is subjective. Some feel it more than others and in different ways brought about by different activities with different partners. There is no 'objective sexual pleasure' just as no human can hold 'objective moral values'.


Sex feels good to me. I feel good when my family is happy. Maybe not everyone feels good from the same things, but that's not important. I'm not saying "sex is good". I'm saying "a person feeling good is preferable to a person feeling bad".

Hopefully I'm being clear enough.
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Oct 14 2014 01:35pm
Quote (Voyaging @ 14 Oct 2014 19:23)
Sex feels good to me. I feel good when my family is happy. Maybe not everyone feels good from the same things, but that's not important. I'm not saying "sex is good". I'm saying "a person feeling good is preferable to a person feeling bad".

Hopefully I'm being clear enough.


Sure... but there are things that make people feel bad that we would consider to be morally right. Punishment for crimes being a prime example.

But in the end does it matter what a person feels? Objectively I mean. Does it have a 'good' effect on the universe if they are happy? How do we define 'good' or 'bad' except subjectively?

I mostly agree with your (slightly utilitarian) ethical framework.... what I do not agree with is it being objective.

This post was edited by Scaly on Oct 14 2014 01:37pm
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Oct 14 2014 01:41pm
Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 02:35pm)
Sure... but there are things that make people feel bad that we would consider to be morally right. Punishment for crimes being a prime example.

But in the end does it matter what a person feels? Objectively I mean. Does it have a 'good' effect on the universe if they are happy? How do we define 'good' or 'bad' except subjectively?



Good is anything agreeable to the underlying moral standard of lie, bad is anything that hinders, bends, breaks, or contradicts the moral standard of life.

For example, If the standard was simply "Do unto others what as you would want done to you"

Good things would be to do things that you would want done to you.
Bad things would be doing things that you wouldn't want done to you.

But by defining it with only this there is subjective morality.

This post was edited by wofire on Oct 14 2014 01:47pm
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Oct 14 2014 01:48pm
Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 03:35pm)
Sure... but there are things that make people feel bad that we would consider to be morally right. Punishment for crimes being a prime example.


I don't think punishment is morally right, so there's no contradiction as far as I can see. I think the most heinous criminal should be isolated from society to prevent further harm, but should be treated well.

Quote (Scaly @ Oct 14 2014 03:35pm)
But in the end does it matter what a person feels? Objectively I mean. Does it have a 'good' effect on the universe if they are happy?


Yes it does, because we are the universe!
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Oct 14 2014 01:48pm
Quote (Scaly @ 14 Oct 2014 14:35)
Sure... but there are things that make people feel bad that we would consider to be morally right. Punishment for crimes being a prime example.

But in the end does it matter what a person feels? Objectively I mean. Does it have a 'good' effect on the universe if they are happy? How do we define 'good' or 'bad' except subjectively?



You talk about defining Good and bad Objectively as if they are black and white when in reality something is never completely good or completely bad everything is measured on a sliding scale that runs from bad to good

I'm not sure it would be possible to find something completely one way.

This post was edited by Valhalls_Sun on Oct 14 2014 01:49pm
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Oct 14 2014 01:51pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Oct 14 2014 02:48pm)
You talk about defining Good and bad Objectively as if they are black and white when in reality something is never completely good or completely bad  everything is measured on a sliding scale that runs from bad to good

I'm not sure it would be possible to find something completely one way.


I agree with this comment. I stated a few posts up...with only a man made morality, morality is subjective to man's beliefs therefore morality is subjective. The only way to not have a subjective morality is to have a deity to define it.
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