Quote (DizzyBusiness @ Nov 10 2023 02:55pm)
Italy withstood millenia of changes? What do you mean by this? And what separates a civilized society from an uncivilized one in your view? The worst atrocities in history were perpetrated by "civilized" society IMO, so the term doesn't hold the same positive connotations to me.
Saudi and Qatar aren't exactly a great example because they are bought and paid for by the west, Qatar is CENTCOM HQ and Saudi is more independent now but have been basically a western vassal for decades. The US finances terror organizations as well and I would suspect that when it's vassals do so it is with their permission. Hamas and ISIS are completely different, ISIS was created as a direct result of US actions when they destroyed Iraq. Hamas was created with a lot of help from Israel itself in an attempt to destabilize the Palestinian political process (which it did)
Bin Laden was a CIA asset before becoming radicalized against America, Afghanistan was supposedly where he was hiding that was their reasoning for going in there. Iraq was part of the larger "war on terror" and the reasoning for that invasion was the supposed WMDs.
If the solution is for the Muslims themselves to modernize Islam then how can it also be the EU and the US who dictate how that happens? That isn't them modernizing that is us integrating them into our societies. Maybe this could have been done decades ago but western power is receding and I don't see how it would even be possible now. Can't wipe them all out either, suppose you could glass it but it would destroy the world economy and Pakistan has nukes AFAIK. Russia and China probably not chill with that option either.
What's wrong with headscarves in your opinion?
I don’t like fundamentalists either so we can agree on that. The majority of Muslims are just regular people trying their best to contribute, how many do you actually know? Seems to me many westerners judge them based on the waves of immigrants/refugees arriving in their countries which in large part come from areas ravaged by western imperialism and are welcomed by western governments
I am at work, so I will make it short. Christianity is divided by the old testament and the new testament. The old testament from 2000y ago was even more violent and unforgiving compared to any of the current day islamistic branches. It arrived in Roman Empire and was refined over centuries into the moderat version called the new testament. The reason was, the Roman Empire and their successors were civilized people. After renaissance, christianity was toned down even more.
Such a process never took place with Islam. You still have the most primitive branches with sharia law lurking in present day
Those radical views shouldn't be acceptable by the modern day silent "moderate" majourity, yet, they stay silent when attrocities happen instead of collectively condemning the act.
I can say I condemn any attrocity done by Hamas towards civilian population in Israel but I am totally against punitive actions against the gaza population.
Most muslims wouldn't even discuss that fact
I am talking from personal experience here. They need to reform/update their religion to the present day standards.
As for the US' and EU's involvement, there are mosques completely financed by Saudis in Germany, they send their priests from there to Germany where the community has got little in common with them, face different everyday problems. A civil person cannot stop it, it has to be done on governmental level:
1. Any priest, like catholic ones, has to study theology before assuming a post here.
2. Any mosque in the west should become financially independent from outside.
Those are the most important aspects.
I don't like headscarves because they're a symbol of backwardness. I am familiar with the religious scripts of all religions. In none of them, you had to go full ninja. Women and
MEN were required to cover their heads during any kind of mess because if the dirt and fleas people had back then as precaution. Men are absolutely required to wear the small hat the pope wears in all 3 religions when outside. It's not women but men who are required to wear them
I am sure the analphabet priest sent by Saudis has never told you that small but important detail. Any devoted Jewish, Christian or Muslim man HAS to cover their back of the head when outside at all times otherwise you're a heretic.
People aren't even familiar with their own religions.
Best example is Turkey, they were on a good way to become a secular state then radicalists arrived and put them back by at least 20y.
Most moderm islamic country is Turkey btw.
This post was edited by babun1024 on Nov 10 2023 08:32am