The Budapest Memorandum had nothing to do with NATO, the security guarantees Russia gave Ukraine in exchange for their nukes were not conditional on NATO refraining from eastern expansion or anything like that.


I agree with you, though, that the idea of Russia in NATO was always absurd.

Ukraine Violated the Budapest Memorandum when it along with the United States at the end of 2021 said they had a deal to join NATO immediately. You can't fault Russia as the violator of that agreement.

And Russia did try to Join NATO apparently
https://www.military.com/history/russia-once-tried-join-nato-alliance-formed-counter-threats-russia.html

Interesting. Weird and more than slightly disturbing. Thanks for the link.

I will reiterate though: Russia joining NATO makes NATO irrelevant. Which is why they tried, apparently, in '54. Any scenario where Russia joins NATO should be the end of NATO.

NATO is a atavism of the cold war, there's has been no legitimate function of it for a long time, What was the purpose of NATO coalition bombing of Serbia, or Libya?
The only reason European 'Allies' were still in NATO is because the United States subsidized their military spending, and they politically relied on If anyone attacks us the United States will go to war with them.
Look at the condition of the German armed forces before 2022 it was a joke, soldiers training with broomsticks and no ammo like they were some destitute country in Africa.

Poland is about the only serious military power in the alliance, I think Turkey could steamroll most of Europe if it wanted to.

This post was edited by PapaPsych on Feb 3 2024 11:48pm

I agree with all of this. The dissolution of NATO, or at the very least, the US withdrawing from it, should have occurred back in the 90's. And it should occur today. Biden's a shit though, so it won't happen under him. If Trump wins, maybe.

Tired of American blood and treasure insuring the safety of Europe. I don't care if they devolve back into their endless squabbles. Fuck 'em.

We are people too .. and Europeans built ur country , if you know ur history

It's none of our business, what good for the prowess of The United States of America has this shit show in Ukraine done.
Nothing, It just exposed our weaknesses that due to our economy are unlikely to be remedied, and our garbage doctrines in modern war.
We don't even have drone units yet to drop grenades, and China came up with that years before the war in Ukraine.
It's laughable when the Biden Administration asked the rest of NATO alliance for a strong posture on what they would do if Taiwan was invaded and they said were not doing shit about that in any capacity go fuck yourself.

Europe is full of human shit everywhere, its like San Francisco.
Anywhere you could think of taking a dump outside there is someone who has already done it not long ago.
Sort yourselves out first.

Not that im aware , in what retrospect is Europe A shit fiesta ?

That you're people doesn't entitle you to our blood and treasure. And any claim Europeans had on helping to "build" the US ended after the Marshall plan. Turns out, we rebuilt half your continent.

That said, I'm not wishing ill on Europe. Merely that it's time for the US to stop providing the military might to protect all of Europe. And Japan. And Korea. We aren't your mommy. Europe's had 70 years of US protection. Time to take off the training wheels and learn how to get along with each other without America having to hold a gigantic stick over your heads. Or fight each other. Whatever you want to do. Can't ever succeed if there's no chance to fail.



I mean, it's interesting. We have amazing drones. Like Predators. But the whole "tiny, cheap, mass produced, overwhelming army of suiucide drones or grenade dropper drones" was apparently too simplistic for the geniuses in military intelligence to figure out.