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Mar 7 2022 08:26am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 7 2022 03:21pm)
Far right groups are present everywhere. Russian elites and many of its people never accepted demise of USSR, he did speeches while arming his missiles.
Sovereign countries have the right to accept anyone or anything they want in their territories.


Demise of USSR in reality happened because they agreed to go this route after rounds of negotiations in case you didn't know that.

BTW they were promised that NATO would not expand to the East, a promise NATO broke which is exactly why we're in such a mess today.

Glad I could help you with some some history ;)
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Mar 7 2022 08:42am
Quote (Djunior @ 7 Mar 2022 14:26)
Demise of USSR in reality happened because they agreed to go this route after rounds of negotiations in case you didn't know that.

BTW they were promised that NATO would not expand to the East, a promise NATO broke which is exactly why we're in such a mess today.

Glad I could help you with some some history ;)



Mikhail Gorbachev, general secretary of the USSR at that time confirmed in a 2014 interview that NATO expansion was never discussed, or brought up in those years.

You can't help it, your place is on the street in Ukraine, go ahead please.
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Mar 7 2022 09:16am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 7 2022 03:42pm)
Mikhail Gorbachev, general secretary of the USSR at that time confirmed in a 2014 interview that NATO expansion was never discussed, or brought up in those years.

You can't help it, your place is on the street in Ukraine, go ahead please.


Let me help you once again because you're clearly clueless and used to sucking up that woke Western MSM propaganda.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early


Quote
Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).

The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.


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Mar 7 2022 10:17am
Quote (Djunior @ 7 Mar 2022 15:16)
Let me help you once again because you're clearly clueless and used to sucking up that woke Western MSM propaganda.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early



https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203

Fact:Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 – and that has never changed. This “Open Door Policy” is enshrined in Article 10 of NATO’s founding treaty, which says “any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic” can apply for membership. Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. No treaty signed by the United States, Europe and Russia included provisions on NATO membership.

The idea of NATO expansion beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed. This was confirmed by Mikhail Gorbachev in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."


Now take the boat and go attack Ukraine for Putin.

This post was edited by Saucisson6000 on Mar 7 2022 10:18am
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Mar 7 2022 10:51am
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 7 2022 09:16am)
Let me help you once again because you're clearly clueless and used to sucking up that woke Western MSM propaganda.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/exposing-the-myth-of-western-betrayal-of-russia/

Quote
‘Not one inch eastward’ – and what it really meant

Did NATO make a binding promise to refrain from eastward enlargement, only to make a clandestine volte-face?

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, German and Soviet leaders had to confront a number of complex problems, including what would happen to the 380,000 Red Army soldiers stationed in East Germany (GDR) and when and how the USSR would give up its Allied reserved rights over Germany. Eventually, Moscow agreed to withdraw its troops and to relinquish its rights as WWII victor power. As part of this negotiation, a unified Germany also gained full sovereignty. It was therefore free to choose its alliance affiliation, which resulted in it remaining a NATO member, even though it had grown in size.

In Putin’s narrative, Moscow only conceded on these issues because NATO had assured the Kremlin that it would not expand ‘one inch eastward’. US Secretary of State James Baker uttered these much-quoted words on 9 February 1990. (They were not, as is sometimes claimed, made by US President George H.W. Bush, who had ultimately responsibility for American policy.) Baker’s main aim was to allay Soviet fears of a larger, unified Germany by offering assurances that neither NATO command structures nor NATO troops would be transferred to the ‘territory of the former GDR’. Yet Baker’s ‘not one inch eastward’ formula would have made it impossible to apply NATO security guarantees (especially Article 5) to the whole of Germany. Bush therefore suggested to Chancellor Helmut Kohl that he should, in the future, speak of a ‘special military status’ for the GDR. A meeting in Camp David on 24/25 February 1990 confirmed this wording. Special provisions and obligations as regards the GDR territory were subsequently included in the text of the Two Plus Four Treaty (under Articles 4 and 5), which formally re-established German unity. This treaty placed significant restrictions on the deployment of foreign NATO troops and nuclear weapons on East German soil. In return for his willingness to compromise on these points, Kohl granted Gorbachev, in bilateral talks, a financial package totalling around DM 100 billion, in the form of loans and economic aid, which financed the withdrawal of the Red Army soldiers.

To be clear, then, the talks in February 1990 were never about NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. They were confined to the specific issue of NATO’s defence in the wake of German unification – and the two issues should not be conflated. It is also important to remember that the Warsaw Pact was still in existence during these talks, so NATO enlargement was a moot point.
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Mar 7 2022 10:52am
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Mar 7 2022 05:17pm)
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203

Fact:Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 – and that has never changed. This “Open Door Policy” is enshrined in Article 10 of NATO’s founding treaty, which says “any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic” can apply for membership. Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. No treaty signed by the United States, Europe and Russia included provisions on NATO membership.

The idea of NATO expansion beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed. This was confirmed by Mikhail Gorbachev in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."


Now take the boat and go attack Ukraine for Putin.


Posting in gigantic font aint gonna help you. That link I posted shows you the info. Post the Gorbatchev interview and I'll have a look cuz I didn't find it. I found this one though and see what he had to say about the french ;)

@5:25 French were against reuniting Germany. Git gud now you french troll

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Mar 7 2022 10:53am
Quote (Santara @ Mar 7 2022 05:51pm)


The only thing you can claim is that there was not an official document signed which doesn't mean the promises were not made.

This post was edited by Djunior on Mar 7 2022 10:54am
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Mar 7 2022 10:54am
Quote (Djunior @ Mar 7 2022 10:53am)
The only thing you can claim is that there was not an official document signed which doesn't mean the promises were made.


In my best lawyer voice: "did you get it in writing?"
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Mar 7 2022 11:11am
Quote (Djunior @ 7 Mar 2022 16:52)
Posting in gigantic font aint gonna help you. That link I posted shows you the info. Post the Gorbatchev interview and I'll have a look cuz I didn't find it. I found this one though and see what he had to say about the french ;)

@5:25 French were against reuniting Germany. Git gud now you french troll

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYVsKoQXATY


This is a 2019 video, not 2014. Your own deception is terrible, i feel sorry for you.

Btw show me the treaty's text promising no new otan member in eastern euro countries. Please show the text, show me the document.
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Mar 7 2022 11:17am
Quote (Santara @ Mar 7 2022 08:54am)
In my best lawyer voice: "did you get it in writing?"


Sometimes verbal promises can be legally binding, depending on the jurisdiction.

You seem to think promises only mean something when they get committed down in ink.
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