d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Abortion
Prev1505152535457Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 12,179
Joined: Mar 23 2012
Gold: 7,240.57
Dec 8 2021 01:03pm
Quote (Santara @ Dec 8 2021 02:00pm)
What's not "very libertarian" about weighing all of one party's rights being permanently revoked (killing the unborn) against the lesser evil of "you have to carry that baby you made to term?"


A libertarian would say that individuals are free to do as they choose. That's it.

It's why it's not a real thing. It's just a meme ideology.
Member
Posts: 52,226
Joined: Jan 3 2009
Gold: 8,902.00
Dec 8 2021 01:11pm
Quote (toyake @ Dec 8 2021 01:03pm)
A libertarian would say that individuals are free to do as they choose. That's it.

It's why it's not a real thing. It's just a meme ideology.


Spare me your opinion on what libertarians think. Libertarians can hardly agree with each other.
Member
Posts: 12,179
Joined: Mar 23 2012
Gold: 7,240.57
Dec 8 2021 01:11pm
Quote (Santara @ Dec 8 2021 02:11pm)
Spare me your opinion on what libertarians think. Libertarians can hardly agree with each other.


nvm

This post was edited by toyake on Dec 8 2021 01:15pm
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Dec 8 2021 01:13pm
Quote (Santara @ Dec 8 2021 01:00pm)
What's not "very libertarian" about weighing all of one party's rights being permanently revoked (killing the unborn) against the lesser evil of "you have to carry that baby you made to term?"


I heard an interesting thought experiment recently and I'd like to hear your opinion.


Let's say you're driving and you hit a pedestrian. The only way to save his life is to hook the person up to your blood supply until he's healed.

1. Should you be obligated to hook yourself up to him to save his life? (analagous to plan B pill which prevents implantation)
2. If you agree to be hooked up to him do you have a right to terminate the connection? (You refuse plan B)
3. If you didn't agree but were still hooked up either against your will or because you were knocked out in the crash, do you have the right to terminate your connection? (You were being responsible and it was an accident, but you got pregnant anyway)
4. Do any of these change if you were driving normally versus driving wrecklessly vs driving drunk?

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Dec 8 2021 01:14pm
Member
Posts: 78,723
Joined: Nov 30 2008
Gold: 493.00
Dec 8 2021 01:13pm
Quote (toyake @ Dec 8 2021 02:11pm)
Seriously, ask them about the age of consent laws and it's like they're going for a golf high score.


I have been suspended for this line of thought in the past fyi
Member
Posts: 12,179
Joined: Mar 23 2012
Gold: 7,240.57
Dec 8 2021 01:15pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Dec 8 2021 02:13pm)
I have been suspended for this line of thought in the past fyi


TY, removed
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Dec 8 2021 01:15pm
Quote (Santara @ Dec 8 2021 01:11pm)
Spare me your opinion on what libertarians think. Libertarians can hardly agree with each other.


You guys really should just drop the common label honestly. You guys fight like cats and dogs and can't agree on even the most basic aspects of the ideology. You're more of a "fuck the government" dumping space than an actual party or ideology.
Member
Posts: 92,984
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
Dec 8 2021 01:32pm
Quote (fender @ Dec 8 2021 02:00pm)
come to think of, i actually DO agree that democrats bear a good amount of responsibility for keeping abortion a controversial political issue, just probably not the way you originally meant: it's not the "fringe left", which as far as i can tell would be happy to just codify abortion law, making it a constitutional right, and be done with it. however, the aforementioned toothless and mainly rhetorical opposition by the democratic establishment is probably quite happy to keep it a hot button issue for electoral purposes, and has in fact been making more or less empty promises to protect women's rights for ages now, without ever really putting their foot down like republicans do when they are in power. in this case we're not even talking about shitty politics to protect and further the interests of the powerful few, which seems to be the GOP's main concern, but an issue democrats would have a solid popular majority, significantly exceeding their electoral base, in support of.

i still maintain that the silent undermining of roe in red states didn't receive nearly enough attention (maybe partly due to the fact that democrats didn't see electoral promise in properly addressing it) - the main responsibility is always with those attacking rights, not the shitty opposition too incompetent to protect them - and it's most definitely the political and religious right, which is the more active and vocal side, attacking landmark precedent through activist judges, eroding secular and democratic cornerstones.



that's the thing, you can never be a truly principled libertarian, it's a pick and choose "ideology", which quickly contradicts itself when applied to the real world or tasked with establishing a functioning state. it's basically an introductory thought experiment for political edgelords who want to justify their selfishness by giving it some kind of "intellectual" coat of paint. usually, intelligent people grow out of it towards the end of their teens, or whenever they start leading an adult life with all its responsibilities, but some people never grow out of it.

also, to be fair, it makes for some snazzy little quotes - if you don't make the mistake of thinking about them for more than five seconds...


speaking as an american nowhere near the deep south i read headlines for years about state abortion law changes, it was all pretty out there. but i agree democrats kept it alive to get people fired up, likely thinking it would never make it to scotus. when u gamble u risk losing.

Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Dec 8 2021 02:15pm)
You guys really should just drop the common label honestly. You guys fight like cats and dogs and can't agree on even the most basic aspects of the ideology. You're more of a "fuck the government" dumping space than an actual party or ideology.


thats rich considering the democrats are a rainbow of ideologies willing to kill each other if it were legal. black and gays, jews and muslims, blacks and asians, blacks and blacks.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Dec 8 2021 01:33pm
Member
Posts: 30,165
Joined: Sep 10 2004
Gold: 0.00
Warn: 30%
Dec 8 2021 02:02pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 8 Dec 2021 20:32)
speaking as an american nowhere near the deep south i read headlines for years about state abortion law changes, it was all pretty out there. but i agree democrats kept it alive to get people fired up, likely thinking it would never make it to scotus. when u gamble u risk losing.



thats rich considering the democrats are a rainbow of ideologies willing to kill each other if it were legal. black and gays, jews and muslims, blacks and asians, blacks and blacks.


you having read headlines about red states undermining roe does not mean it received "enough attention" though.
not just because it's anecdotal and highly dependent on your specific media diet, but also because i clearly just expressed a personal opinion, implying that had it received appropriate attention, republicans wouldn't have gotten away with it so easily.

to be clear, i think it's fair to blame dems for not settling the issue, for keeping it around for electoral reasons, and being their toothless, weak, and incompetent selves. that does, however, not put them even remotely on the same level of shittiness as republicans, who are the ones ACTIVELY attacking women's rights, undermining landmark precedent, eroding the secular and democratic foundations of america in the process - against the will of a solid majority.

let me put it this way: you can be mad at your dog for not driving off the burglar, but the main responsibility for your flatscreen being gone is still with the guy who broke into your house, and not your lazy mutt...
Member
Posts: 92,984
Joined: Dec 31 2007
Gold: 2,299.94
Dec 8 2021 02:10pm
Quote (fender @ Dec 8 2021 03:02pm)
you having read headlines about red states undermining roe does not mean it received "enough attention" though.
not just because it's anecdotal and highly dependent on your specific media diet, but also because i clearly just expressed a personal opinion, implying that had it received appropriate attention, republicans wouldn't have gotten away with it so easily.

to be clear, i think it's fair to blame dems for not settling the issue, for keeping it around for electoral reasons, and being their toothless, weak, and incompetent selves. that does, however, not put them even remotely on the same level of shittiness as republicans, who are the ones ACTIVELY attacking women's rights, undermining landmark precedent, eroding the secular and democratic foundations of america in the process - against the will of a solid majority.

let me put it this way: you can be mad at your dog for not driving off the burglar, but the main responsibility for your flatscreen being gone is still with the guy who broke into your house, and not your lazy mutt...


the problem is that in the deep red states where the "attack of women" is in full force its fairly popular with the people who live there, even many of the red state dems have wildly out of line abortion opinions from coastal dems. and a heap of attention wont make codifying it into national law IMO any easier. especially when trump and his veto stamp were in office. even if it were it would be subject to a scotus ruling from a body of judges who LOVE state's rights, so around and around it goes.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev1505152535457Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll