Also this.

Our relationship to the truth as exposed by science falls under the same argument.

If there are degrees of wrongness, ie, if one theory explaining a phenomenon is more true than another theory of the same phenomenon, that implies the existence of a real underlying truth we can never be exposed to through the apparent world, and furthermore degrees of wrongness.

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to know, does it make a noise?

This post was edited by Skinned on Oct 14 2014 08:48am

yes, yes it does

that much can't be disputed

this is like asking if dropping a stone in water creates ripples if no one is there to observe it

different medium (water/air), same concept

This post was edited by duffman316 on Oct 14 2014 08:50am

Does the tree even fall? If we aren't there to observe it happening then does that mean it simply doesn't happen?

A little solipsistic don't you think? Almost a Ken Ham style argument even.

Also we know trees exist. Morals... aren't tangible physical objects that exist outside of our own consciousness. Without moral agents morals cease to exist as far as we know. To argue that objective moral values exist is to argue that they exist independently. Like trees.

This post was edited by Scaly on Oct 14 2014 10:04am

There is nothing more real about my own mind than yours, even though it might appear that way to me. Since we both have minds, and we can both suffer, etc., we are both equally important.

This idea is to eliminate ethical egoism as being an option, because up til that point the argument could've gone either way. By eliminating the incorrect idea that I am any more special than anyone else, the conclusion is that everyone that's a subject of experience is a moral end, to different degrees depending on the extent of their experience.



Whether beings are capable of being objective is another discussion entirely. Even if no being can be, that doesn't mean there aren't objective moral values.

Objective moral values could exist independently of our consciousness, but only if there is consciousness elsewhere in the world. Morality is contingent on there being conscious beings. Without consciousness, morality is meaningless. I'm not trying to say it's some kind of absolute, unchanging truth, it changes as the world changes.



1. if we define noise as the waves that are created, then yes it does
2. if we define noise as the experience of sound those waves cause, then no it doesn't



What makes trees more real than, say, the pleasure of sex?

This post was edited by Voyaging on Oct 14 2014 12:32pm

The tree part was an afterthought, the meat of my post was before that.

Can we have perfect knowledge of the world? Probably not, but we can be more right about stuff.

Though maybe one day we'll concoct a theory of everything. This obviously wouldn't be omniscience but it would be a complete explanation at least.

Though of course knowledge in any sense, outside of knowledge of my own mind, requires philosophical suppositions like, for example, that my senses reliably perceive the world, that we aren't in The Matrix, etc. but I think these are ok suppositions to make.

not that, how does this lead to conclusions about objective morality? i see nothing that even suggests that in this

This post was edited by duffman316 on Oct 14 2014 12:54pm

See the rest of my post

Consciousness is a feature of the world. Hedonic tone is a feature of certain conscious systems. Positive hedonic tone has intrinsic value within a conscious system and negative hedonic tone has intrinsic anti-value within a conscious system.

Morality is merely a concept used to describe the nature of value. "Valuable" (i.e. good) states of mind are intrinsically a part of the world, a real part of the world, in exactly the same way that atoms and molecules are part of the world.

is there something that we ought to do (strive for / prevent) in all situations?
the thing that is good for fulfilling the purpose of what morals are for is objectively moral. moral being dependent upon humans still allows for moral causes and deeds in an objective sense.

This post was edited by Gastly on Oct 14 2014 01:02pm