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#5041
Nov 24 2020 03:37pm
Quote (ofthevoid @ Nov 24 2020 03:33pm)
That's great. Bill's impeachment maybe was maybe a similar magnitude spectacle but Benghazi was just a blip compared to this. What's the point of bringing this up? Past spectacles make more recent ones okay?

Desperate for my attention. We'll chat some more when I get back from the store.


The political pendulum swings wider and wider.

Bill's impeachment was utter horse shit, i know this because my relatives who bring it up constantly dont have any ears for Trump's misdeeds in his personal life. Bill got bjs, trump paid for BJs, etc. none of them deserved the US tax payer to foot the bill to investigate.

HRC's trial was just an echo of Bill getting off, revenge for him "getting away with it".

If biden takes office and a GOP senate wants to impeach him over some charge of corruption with Ukraine you'll love it. no matter how flimsy it may be evidence wise. and we'll all pay for it as tax payers while if we're damn lucky a scapegoat heads to club med in Biden's place.

but overall my point was that Manafort, Trump's literal campaign manager, was literally indicted on collusion and corruption. a far cry from the charges leveled against Trump specifically, but jesus if people love to forget that a literal manager went to pound me in the ass prison for trying to sell secrets to Russia.
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#5042
Nov 24 2020 03:39pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 24 2020 03:37pm)
but overall my point was that Manafort, Trump's literal campaign manager, was literally indicted on collusion and corruption. a far cry from the charges leveled against Trump specifically, but jesus if people love to forget that a literal manager went to pound me in the ass prison for trying to sell secrets to Russia.


DON'T YOU BRING UP THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WENT TO JAIL FOR THE EXACT THING BEING INVESTIGATED! THAT'S PARTISAN HACKERY!
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#5043
Nov 24 2020 03:54pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Nov 24 2020 03:39pm)
DON'T YOU BRING UP THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WENT TO JAIL FOR THE EXACT THING BEING INVESTIGATED! THAT'S PARTISAN HACKERY!


TBH the democrats tendency to treat Trump like a bafoon when it suits them and a mastermind when it suits them gave too many partisan right wingers an easy way out. Or even if they like the "Putin had him comprimised" angle, which was always silly.

as i said at the time, IF and that's a HUGE if, there was some sort of collusion there was a 0% chance it would implicate trump personally. thats like spy shit 101. theres always a patsy, theres always a scapegoat, theres never a paper trail.
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#5044
Nov 24 2020 03:57pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 24 2020 03:54pm)
TBH the democrats tendency to treat Trump like a bafoon when it suits them and a mastermind when it suits them gave too many partisan right wingers an easy way out. Or even if they like the "Putin had him comprimised" angle, which was always silly.

as i said at the time, IF and that's a HUGE if, there was some sort of collusion there was a 0% chance it would implicate trump personally. thats like spy shit 101. theres always a patsy, theres always a scapegoat, theres never a paper trail.


I've consistently treated Trump like a buffoon thank you very much!
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#5045
Nov 24 2020 06:32pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 24 2020 02:26pm)
Democrats publicly mused about convincing electors to vote against Trump in 2016. And back in 2005, Demorats threw a fit and challenged the certification of Ohio's electoral votes because they couldnt cope with Dubya's reelection:
https://edition.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/electoral.vote.1718/

Trump's antics are clearly shitty, going nowhere, and I wish he'd stop them - but they're not as unique or norm-defying as you make them out to be.


Trump is certainly unique and norm defying, he's the only western leader who was nutjob tweeting in all caps all the time. I'm gonna miss how funny american politics was all these years.

This post was edited by duffman316 on Nov 24 2020 06:34pm
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#5046
Nov 24 2020 10:03pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 24 2020 04:37pm)
The political pendulum swings wider and wider.

Bill's impeachment was utter horse shit, i know this because my relatives who bring it up constantly dont have any ears for Trump's misdeeds in his personal life. Bill got bjs, trump paid for BJs, etc. none of them deserved the US tax payer to foot the bill to investigate.

HRC's trial was just an echo of Bill getting off, revenge for him "getting away with it".

If biden takes office and a GOP senate wants to impeach him over some charge of corruption with Ukraine you'll love it. no matter how flimsy it may be evidence wise. and we'll all pay for it as tax payers while if we're damn lucky a scapegoat heads to club med in Biden's place.

but overall my point was that Manafort, Trump's literal campaign manager, was literally indicted on collusion and corruption. a far cry from the charges leveled against Trump specifically, but jesus if people love to forget that a literal manager went to pound me in the ass prison for trying to sell secrets to Russia.


Manafort plead guilty on bank fraud and failing to register as a foreign agent, not on colluding with or selling secrets to Russia.
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#5047
Nov 24 2020 10:05pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Nov 24 2020 04:37pm)
The political pendulum swings wider and wider.

Bill's impeachment was utter horse shit, i know this because my relatives who bring it up constantly dont have any ears for Trump's misdeeds in his personal life. Bill got bjs, trump paid for BJs, etc. none of them deserved the US tax payer to foot the bill to investigate.

HRC's trial was just an echo of Bill getting off, revenge for him "getting away with it".

If biden takes office and a GOP senate wants to impeach him over some charge of corruption with Ukraine you'll love it. no matter how flimsy it may be evidence wise. and we'll all pay for it as tax payers while if we're damn lucky a scapegoat heads to club med in Biden's place.

but overall my point was that Manafort, Trump's literal campaign manager, was literally indicted on collusion and corruption. a far cry from the charges leveled against Trump specifically, but jesus if people love to forget that a literal manager went to pound me in the ass prison for trying to sell secrets to Russia.


He was indicted on a bunch of financial and fraud charges as well as failing to register as a foreign agent for Ukraine. So pretty much nothing relating to Russia.

Quote (bogie160 @ Nov 24 2020 11:03pm)
Manafort plead guilty on bank fraud and failing to register as a foreign agent, not on colluding with or selling secrets to Russia.


in before'd me.

Also not sure what tcock proved with posting that doc. I read through some of it and it literally says that the FISA was not warranted and there were serious lapses in allowing it to happen on a presidential candidate including the fact that it was allowed based on Steele's fan fick.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Nov 24 2020 10:09pm
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#5048
Nov 25 2020 12:09am
Quote (thundercock @ 24 Nov 2020 21:24)
I'm not sure how it can be a nothingburger given that several people went to prison...

... for procedural crimes (Flynn) or for their personal corruption and wrongdoings which were unrelated to the Trump campaign (Manafort).

Quote
just because we didn't publicly hang members of the Trump campaign doesn't mean it wasn't worthwhile.

True. It wasnt worthwhile because it found no serious infraction of the law by any member of Trump's campaign.

We of course have to weight the value such an investigation produces to the damage it inflicts on the American government's ability to govern the country. Of course Democrats, the media and the Trump-hostile forces within the federal bureaucracy and intelligence community which started and propelled this investigation couldn't possibly have forseen this outcome - that the Russia investigation undermined Trump's presidency was a totally accidental side effect, this collateral damage was totally not the true purpose of this investigation, right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote
A lot of the Mueller investigation was devoted to Trump's obstructive acts....which is all on Trump being a moron. It seems to me that too many people didn't understand the foundation of the investigation and what they were actually investigating...

Yes, Trump committed a bad blunder when he fired Comey, he made it easy for his opponents to justify the investigation which tied Trump's hands. But let's not delude ourselves: even without the opening to extensively investigate obstruction, they would have found a way to keep this investigation going, because they had always wanted to keep it going for as long as possible.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 25 2020 12:26am
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#5049
Nov 25 2020 12:24am
Quote (thesnipa @ 24 Nov 2020 22:37)
Bill's impeachment was utter horse shit, i know this because my relatives who bring it up constantly dont have any ears for Trump's misdeeds in his personal life. Bill got bjs, trump paid for BJs, etc. none of them deserved the US tax payer to foot the bill to investigate.


The key moral offense of Bill Clinton was not adultery, it was the abuse of power aspect of a President shagging his intern on the job. And like Trump with his firing of Comey, Clinton foolishly gave his opponents an opening for formal investigations when he lied under oath.
I agree, however, that the Lewinsky scandal was mostly pearl-clutching and poisoned American politics forever.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 25 2020 12:26am
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#5050
Nov 25 2020 12:31am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 24 2020 10:09pm)
... for procedural crimes (Flynn) or for their personal corruption and wrongdoings which were unrelated to the Trump campaign (Manafort).


True. It wasnt worthwhile because it found no serious infraction of the law by any member of Trump's campaign.

We of course have to weight the value such an investigation produces to the damage it inflicts on the American government's ability to govern the country. Of course Democrats, the media and the Trump-hostile forces within the federal bureaucracy and intelligence community which started and propelled this investigation couldn't possibly have forseen this outcome - that the Russia investigation undermined Trump's presidency was a totally accidental side effect, this collateral damage was totally not the true purpose of this investigation, right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Yes, Trump committed a bad blunder when he fired Comey, he made it easy for his opponents to justify the investigation which tied Trump's hands. But let's not delude ourselves: even without the opening to extensively investigate obstruction, they would have found a way to keep this investigation going, because they wanted to keep it going for as long as possible.


I mean, the part of the investigation involving the Trump campaign wrapped up pretty quickly (as it should have). The purpose of the investigation was to see how Russia interfered with our election and if the Trump campaign made any sort of contact with Russian officials. I think far too many people believe that this was about Trump personally (including Trump himself). Folks need to take a step back and not take it so politically. I don't think people like Mueller were politically motivated to keep the investigation going.
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