A map of Nato enlargement tells its own tale, as does the 2014 coup. However if it keeps you up at night, sure, Putin is evil, and he is under your bed. He is plotting to take over the world.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 20 2025 08:27am

People joining a defensive alliance of their own free will due to the threat posed by an aggressive neighboring country with a history of oppressing their domestic population and aggressive expansionist invasions does not the tell the tale you think it does.

Russia didn't get as large as it did through a series of peaceful unions with neighboring countries

This post was edited by duffman316 on Nov 20 2025 08:30am

and yet, the US has a strict rule in place to prevent nations from doing this in its back yard. the world is not fair. superpowers are like tigers, they wont accept another tiger near them.you either stay out of its way or you dont provoke it.

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 20 2025 08:44am

Did the people of the DPR, LPR & Crimea and the majority of Ukrainian voters who supported Yanukovych and the Party of Regions in the last nationwide elections "join a defensive alliance of their own free will"

the reality is when you put certain people on the spot they refuse to answer a simple question because they are too rigid and convinced they are right. the world is black and white for them.

Im aware of the russian perspective.

The us is terrible, dont get me wrong, but the alternative hegemons are simply far worse. There should indeed be multiple large economic and military super powers, and the existence of russia was valuable in this regard until they revealed themselves to be pathetic and weak with their latest war. I just wish it was a viable country for decent folk to live in instead of being the shit hole that it is. A revolution can't come soon enough.

It's a democracy. From what ive read the vast majority wanted to be closer to eu than russia (shocker) and not everyone is going to get their way. Not all people protesting against the previous president are covert western imperial agents. Ukrainians can always swing back towards allying with russia should the majority of the population choose that direction - unlikely given the last few years of barbarism and savagery by the orcs but it is an option

we can agree completely on all aspects of this. well, the revolution part is too dangerous, imagine 17 nations with nuclear weapons, no thx.

also a headline today: "US military officials in Kyiv as Europe warns against reported Russia peace plan"

This post was edited by ferdia on Nov 20 2025 09:32am

The people had a vote on their direction and their representatives. They chose the pro-RU candidate over the pro-EU one. They voted for the governor of Donetsk and the Party of Regions
In a democracy, not all people get their way- but the majority of people do. The majority of their people chose Yanukovych and a minority chose to overthrow him by force, tear down the democracy and put in place a puppet government that stopped holding elections entirely.

The whole idea of a democracy is to give the people their free will to choose the direction of their country. The self-determination of the masses, usually manifesting as a republic with elected representatives given the impracticality of direct democracy at scale. The people didn't choose to cut ties with Russia and seek EU membership, the people didn't choose to 'join a defensive alliance'. NATO powers took over the administration of the Ukrainian government and have micromanaged their affairs. At first they held rump elections wide swathes of Ukrainians disenfranchised, just mock votes as a pretense for legitimacy. Now they don't even bother.

It makes sense that Europe would oppose a plan that legitamizes and recognizes imperial wars of conquest yet again. Think of the precedent it would set to reward russia for its aggression in the region.

It is in the best interest of Europeans to not have a larger russian presence af their border

This post was edited by duffman316 on Nov 20 2025 09:49am