Quote (IceMage @ Apr 17 2021 12:29pm)

As usual, you're unfair in characterizing my views.

I understand that some on this forum(like yourself) are kneejerk defenders of all things Trump and Russia, so the story did not pique your curiosity in the slightest. You'll see my initial reaction was "well, this is strange". We're then faced with the usual lies, contradictions, and obfuscation from Trump and his people, which doesn't support the claim that the story is bunk.

If you read my posts in the thread, it's a template for how I usually operate. I post relevant stories, bat down the kneejerk skeptics, and suggest ways that the administration could respond in a credible way to clarify the story.

It's not about goading Trump into war... it's about holding government accountable. If the bounties story was credible, and it was in Trump's brief, and the NSC held meetings to discuss options, but Trump chose not to act, I'd like to know why. I care if Russia is putting bounties on the heads of our soldiers, I'm just old fashioned like that.

After the story got clarified a bit, we learned some of the intelligence the IC had, how CIA had medium confidence and NSA low confidence, how Pompeo talked directly with Lavrov to warn them on the issue, etc. The way the Biden administration responded suggests that the intelligence was not rock solid enough for harsh action, which I suppose is consistent with the later reporting, and perhaps contradicts(as Bogie pointed out) the original story.

On a more general matter, I don't believe weakness in the face of Russian aggression is a good strategy. Sweeping their actions under the rug will not alter their behavior in a positive direction.

Quote (thundercock @ Apr 17 2021 12:57pm)

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't most of the outrage re: Bountygate about how Trump wasn't reading his intelligence briefings and he denied knowing about it? Anyway, the playing field is a bit more unfair because conservatives really struggle with nuance because their education is woefully inadequate. If you have to explain something to them, you've already lost the battle.

I think the media needs to be more responsible with their narratives because far too many people jump to conclusions. This includes the original reporting as well as the characterization of the reporting by other outlets. IMO, the latter is far worse but I could understand the argument that the former is more important.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 17 2021 02:50pm)

I've been consistently anti-war. The fact that the people you worship are constantly trying to escalate and bring war to a region I'm from and still have tons of family irks me, especially based on bullshit claims.

There was no Russian aggression, that's the point, so any response would have been our aggression.

Quote (IceMage @ Apr 17 2021 03:05pm)

So what I've gathered is you're triggered by what I've said but can't seem to make an argument against any of it.

Quote (Surfpunk @ Apr 17 2021 01:24pm)

Reward for not flipping.

Quote (thundercock @ Apr 17 2021 12:57pm)

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't most of the outrage re: Bountygate about how Trump wasn't reading his intelligence briefings and he denied knowing about it? Anyway, the playing field is a bit more unfair because conservatives really struggle with nuance because their education is woefully inadequate. If you have to explain something to them, you've already lost the battle.

Quote

I think the media needs to be more responsible with their narratives because far too many people jump to conclusions. This includes the original reporting as well as the characterization of the reporting by other outlets. IMO, the latter is far worse but I could understand the argument that the former is more important.

The problem with this narrative is that it's irrelevant. When you use the term "collusion," most people assumed that Trump was literally on the phone with Putin coordinating stuff. People like Maddow really didn't help in this regard. Is it wrong for the head of Trump's campaign to be doing this sort of thing? Absolutely. However, the reporting of this sort of thing was either "Trump is a criminal mastermind" vs. "Trump is totally innocent."

Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 17 2021 02:36pm)

I prefer the simplest explanation that fits the facts. Could Trump be involved in a far reaching conspiracy for which he needed to shut Manafort up? It's possible. But a more likely explanation is that if he refuses to pardon Manafort, he is acknowledging that Manafort committed crimes, which clearly reflects very poorly on Trump. As a result, Manafort has to be pardoned. The fact that Manafort is guilty of illegal lobbying and various other financial crimes is irrelevant to Trump. If it makes him look bad, it didn't happen.





In this you're wrong. Most of the initial outrage was focused around the perception that Trump was lying about the briefing, which fed into Russiagate paranoia, i.e. that Trump was avoiding criticizing Russia because of some kompromat that Putin supposedly had on him.



Of course it's not ok for Manafort to have done the things he did. That's why he was put in prison. Trump is incompetent, and Manafort was corrupt. But rather than point out the obvious, and take the quick, albeit limited, win, we embarked on a multi-year national saga to determine whether or not Trump was a Russian plant.

Quote (Surfpunk @ Apr 17 2021 03:45pm)

Post 25 in this thread. Words have meaning. "Flip" and "Sell [me] out" have very specific meanings that can't be ignored. Whatever it is that Manafort knows is not known (except to a very few people), but the fact that Trump tells his closest aides and friends that Manafort isn't going to "flip" and "sell him out" is a very strong indicator that Manafort knows something.

Quote (bogie160 @ Apr 17 2021 02:54pm)

Trump described the situation with Cohen similarly. Cohen obviously "flipped", and yet Trump is not in prison. If his fixer didn't have incriminating evidence, how bad could it possibly be? I think it's safe to say that Trump believes there is a conspiracy against him, and that prosecutors are going to pressure his former acquaintances into making incriminatory allegations.

Quote (@realDonaldTrump @ April 21 2018)

The New York Times and a third rate reporter named Maggie Haberman, known as a Crooked H flunkie who I don’t speak to and have nothing to do with, are going out of their way to destroy Michael Cohen and his relationship with me in the hope that he will “flip.”

Quote (inkanddagger @ Apr 17 2021 12:31pm)

Conservatives: “you can’t believe the US government!”

US government : “communism bad!”

Conservatives: “praise Jesus!”

Quote (duffman316 @ Apr 17 2021 08:49pm)

what does the bounty hunter stuff have to do with the collusion stuff? i'm not seeing any refutations of the main story here, or is it just a case of not believing the government/media?