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Oct 29 2020 09:07pm
Quote (Skinned @ Oct 29 2020 08:02pm)
Yes, they have excess and largess for themselves at the higher ranks and that causes a lot of problems. Their needs to be limitations as to what sorts of things they can bargain for and not a blank check to hold their managers ransom. There needs to be tangible grievances as well, safety issues, and not just "we wish to make more money".

Teacher's striking for example is a big problem. Also anybody striking is not coming to work and the employer should have the ultimate right to fire somebody for that. But the whole strength in numbers thing...a union is only relevant if the vast majority of the worker body at least has a quorum moving in a direction. Also things have to be pretty bad for people to do things outside of work for work. When I get off I don't want to see those people, talk about work stuff.

Even with unions I bet Canada still has a lot of rich guys.


Solid stance on unions. I have nothing to add at all :P

also i'll be satisfied when we have some black billionaires
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Oct 30 2020 07:22am
Quote (Santara @ Oct 29 2020 10:40pm)
Should the military be able to unionize, and go on strike if their demands aren't met?


Not exactly a 1:1 comparison considering you sign your freedom away to the military. Whereas civilians working in the public sector are free to leave at any time.
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Oct 30 2020 07:40am
Quote (Mangix @ Oct 29 2020 04:35pm)
Oh sorry, I didn't mean that directly at you. Its just you that I'm talking to, so I naturally used "you".

I think most people are encouraged to work and to produce when they exist under a system that immediately rewards them for their labor.
Like a worker at a pharma company doesn't get rewarded with the patent on a product they create, instead that goes to the CEO above them or to the company itself. (I'm not sure who gets it, but its not the person putting in the labor) Our current system encourages its people to do the bare minimum required to not be fired, so that they do not starve. I do not think this is a productive way forward.

Given that view I hold.
The workers are not compensated appropriately or not taken care of in many ways and thus unions exist as a bandaid on capitalism to stop them from being taken advantage of.
Which is why up until the jobs dropped out of America, a lot of people in manual labor industries were part of unions.

There is nothing inherently wrong with unions, only specific unions.
I would say during times of bad behavior by a union it is the responsibility of society, and more importantly the members of that union that care about it being around long term to oust these people.
If that becomes impossible the responsible members of it should remove themselves and form a new one.

I think we have the ability to be empathetic both publicly and privately. There is more than enough capital to go around.

Sorry I can't help but tangent every time I post because I love discourse lol. Feel free to only reply to the core point at the bottom.


Equity sharing has been a private corporate practice for years, that may give you some of what you're looking for.

I believe strongly that only through competition, and by rewarding that competition at a societal level, can we progress as a species. The competition needs to be fair (as fair as can be) and meritocratic, but there must be those above and others below. It's not a cruel reality of life, it is the preferred outcome.

I'm not sure that we have a plethora of public resources. Certainly, they won't be plentiful for long if we spend them irresponsibly and forget to reward the origin of that plenty. We to need to reward the producers, both large and small, in order to keep the engine going. We can spare for those who want to work but can't, but we can't afford to spare for those who can work but won't.
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Oct 30 2020 07:43am
Quote (bogie160 @ Oct 30 2020 08:40am)
but we can't afford to spare for those who can work but won't.


I've never been convinced this is a large group. People tend to want to produce things and be part of productive groups. We're workers by nature.
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Oct 30 2020 08:38am
This is one of those things where people think they can have all of the cake.

Unions are just a check of power against corporations/state which in most cases have the upper hand. Wanting to remove bargaining power of organizations against corporations/government just ends up with the common man being more fucked.

And on some level , we may be fucked anyways since corporations are just gonna slowly attempt to try and automate as much labor as they can.

Unions vs businesses/corporations/government is nothing more class dynamic struggle. You aren't going to get rid of this.
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Oct 30 2020 08:41am
Quote (sir_lance_bb @ Oct 30 2020 10:38am)
You aren't going to get rid of this.


Idk, historically the cia does a pretty good job
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Oct 30 2020 10:01am
Quote (Thor123422 @ Oct 30 2020 09:43am)
I've never been convinced this is a large group. People tend to want to produce things and be part of productive groups. We're workers by nature.


It depends on whether you set up a system than enables people to work for success.

Take youth unemployment in France. Do they find it rewarding to be bums? Probably not. But the question has to be how to get them working, not how they can subsist without working. Perverse incentives can have a terrible effect.
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Oct 30 2020 10:03am
OP apparently only knows how police unions work.
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Oct 30 2020 11:01am
In Missouri we voted Right to Work down. The GOP tried to pass it anyway. We voted it down again. That second vote down was directly because of the IBEW. They spent tons of money sending our guys out to canvas and talk to people.

IDK about you but it was pretty clear to me that the GOP didn't actually give a fuck what the people wanted. I'm glad to have a union to watch my back for me. It was made pretty crystal clear by Missouri Republicans that they don't have my best interests in mind or that they really even give a fuck about what we as people want.

Besides you're a fool if you honestly think abolishing unions won't lead to increased work hours with reduced pay and benefits. Unions are the very reason you had a book in your hand at 9 instead of a hard hat. Show some fucking respect. You can criticize unions all you want but come at them with an educated argument not some piss poor attempt at whatever the fuck you tried in your post
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Oct 30 2020 11:04am
Quote (proccy @ Oct 29 2020 11:07pm)
Solid stance on unions. I have nothing to add at all :P

also i'll be satisfied when we have some black billionaires


Weed is becoming legal all over US so prepare for a new type of billionaire.


Quote (MizzouFTW @ Oct 30 2020 01:01pm)
In Missouri we voted Right to Work down. The GOP tried to pass it anyway. We voted it down again. That second vote down was directly because of the IBEW. They spent tons of money sending our guys out to canvas and talk to people.

IDK about you but it was pretty clear to me that the GOP didn't actually give a fuck what the people wanted. I'm glad to have a union to watch my back for me. It was made pretty crystal clear by Missouri Republicans that they don't have my best interests in mind or that they really even give a fuck about what we as people want.

Besides you're a fool if you honestly think abolishing unions won't lead to increased work hours with reduced pay and benefits. Unions are the very reason you had a book in your hand at 9 instead of a hard hat. Show some fucking respect. You can criticize unions all you want but come at them with an educated argument not some piss poor attempt at whatever the fuck you tried in your post


IBEW is a legit union. One of the best ever.

This post was edited by Skinned on Oct 30 2020 11:06am
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