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Jan 22 2015 05:02am
SINCE SCALY HAD THE MANNERS i DON'T.

ICEMAGE AND DUFFMAN AND OTHER PILEJUMPERS
LET'S NOT COMPLETELY DERAIL HIS THOUGHT OUT AND PLANNED THREAD, HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL PRECONCEIVED DIFFERENCES IN PARTY IDEOLOGIES THREAD? THAT SEEMS MORE FAIR TO THIS THREAD WHICH WILL CATCH IT'S FAIR SHARE OF SPAM BY VIRTUE OF PARD'S MEMBERS ANYWAY
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Jan 22 2015 05:08am
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ 22 Jan 2015 11:02)
SINCE SCALY HAD THE MANNERS i DON'T.

ICEMAGE AND DUFFMAN AND OTHER PILEJUMPERS
LET'S NOT COMPLETELY DERAIL HIS THOUGHT OUT AND PLANNED THREAD, HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL PRECONCEIVED DIFFERENCES IN PARTY IDEOLOGIES THREAD? THAT SEEMS MORE FAIR TO THIS THREAD WHICH WILL CATCH IT'S FAIR SHARE OF SPAM BY VIRTUE OF PARD'S MEMBERS ANYWAY


Thanks man. Though I completely expect some of the religious members of PaRD to attempt derailment rather than addressing issues which make them uncomfortable.
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Jan 22 2015 06:44am
Well honestly both subjects have been bothering me, and I'd rather discuss them in different places. You've got a good start here.

I think Most "Religious" people don't like to think about sin a whole lot ..not about sinning I mean(hell that's fun) but about the fact that according to their belief they are constantly committing sins
and the more religious they are the more they feel that they sin.

I do feel like it's wrong to bring kids up with the weight of perpetual sin, it's hard enough growing up as is. Teaching your child to be a good person with empathy, and kindness, and love without the weight that comes from the sin tax of religion seems to me to be a very healthy choice.
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Jan 22 2015 08:28am
Quote (Scaly @ Jan 22 2015 12:06am)




I'm not intending to discredit or debunk theism here. I'm simply demonstrating the harm that religious organisations cause.

I don't deny you should feel bad when you do something wrong... but we do that already (unless there's some sort of mental illness or developmental disorder). What religion does is tell you you've done something wrong when you haven't (masturbation, looking upon a woman with lust in your heart, having sexual feelings for a member of the same sex, not praying enough, not loving enough, not unquestioningly obeying religious authority figures, questioning your beliefs etc) and makes you feel a disproportionate amount of guilt when you do do something wrong. It's no longer connected to the harm your actions do but because you have offended god and with that comes the fear of being seperated from god and/or going to hell. Both of which (if you believe them) are disproportionate punishments for your crime whatever it is.

Religion teaches infinite punishment for finite crimes.

Oh and there's a difference between making a mistake and being a bad person. At least to those who are not religious...


Once again you acknowledge that people have criticized you by stating things like "thats only a few overzealous religious hardliners" and yet you continue to make claims about religion that only overzealous religious hardliners prescribe to. No church or pastor ive ever encountered has made any of the claims you state. I see them on crazy videos of crzy sermons from crazy preachers. Yet you still claim that religious organizations cause harm inherently through common curriculum of all churches which is an overgeneralization, perhaps given global context it is not a gross overgeneralization but it is overstated none-the-less. It is not scientific to ignore unwanted data. If youre ever in Wisconsin i can take you to church some sunday and perhaps if you have an open mind you may change your view of religion as an absolute tyrannical moral police and instead as the institution that ive witnessed that is more concerned with making peoples lives better.
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Jan 22 2015 08:28am
Quote (Scaly @ Jan 21 2015 10:44am)
You may have noted, on these boards, my distaste for religion. A lot of you have said things like 'Religion does good things too.' or 'Not all people who are religious do bad things, it's just a fringe minority'.
Well - in this multi-part series of threads I will attempt to explain the insidious ways in which religion causes a huge amount of people to abuse themselves and their friends, family and children and demonstrate the harm caused by their actions and beliefs to themselves, others and society as a whole. Not just a few 'fringe members' but the inherent properties and ideas contained within religions and the common themes that run through them that cause people to commit this abuse when they otherwise may very well not.
Hopefully at the end of this you will at least understand my hardline stance on religion - if not agree with it. A lot of this will focus on Christian beliefs as those are the ones I know the most about but they also apply to similar authoritarian, guilt based religions such as Judaism, Islam and even a large majority of the non Judeo-Christian belief systems.

I'll be doing this over several threads in order to make one point and then allow people to address and discuss it instead of having one convoluted topic which covers all the points I wish to make and ends with no constructive discussion about any or a long argument over a single point.



Childhood indoctrination into authoritarian, guilt based religions is child abuse -

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b6/08/6f/b6086f484fc8bc21964ff05f03ba433a.jpg


Emotional abuse

The story of Jesus' tortuous death is integral to christianity in general. One of the first things an indoctrinated child is taught is that he went through all of this to pay for their indiscretions. Authoritarion, fundamentalist parents will go as far as telling their children that they are sinners. That they are bad people. That Jesus suffered and died because they are a bad person.
Children are not bad people, most of them anyway, we all make mistakes. Everyone lies, most people have stolen something but this doesn't mean you are inherently evil. The way Christianity works is to instill guilt into people, disproportionate guilt for the crimes they have committed. The image of christ's broken and battered body hanging on the cross is everywhere to remind people of how he died for their evil acts. This is not something a child should have to think about. Would you tell your children in graphic detail of anyone else's death? Would you then tell them that it was their fault?

You are broken and need to be fixed - only god can do that.

Along with this idea of their inherent 'badness' comes the constant reminder that they are broken. That they are not good enough. That they must seek and find god else they cannot change and moreover even if they do find god they will never be good enough for god. In atheist circles this is often jokingly referred to as convincing someone they have a disease and then offering them the watered down version of the cure. The cure that they must come back and get every Sunday or else. Unfortunately this is no joke. This is really what people do to children by indoctrinating them - by infecting them with the disease of Christianity.

Developmental abuse

Fundamentalist and especially creationist religion destroys people's ability to think critically and instills in them a distrust of scientists and 'outsiders' and complete unquestioning dependency on religious authority figures. From an early age they are taught to mistrust or even outright dismiss anything that goes against what they are taught - along with this comes the inability to change their ideas or opinions and always act upon their preconceptions regardless of the evidence presented to them. Not only does this culture of unquestioning loyalty to religious authority figures make people extremely open to manipulation it also opens the door for actual physical abuse that is ignored or covered up by people who are indoctrinated into revering these authority figures, though admittedly not a common occurrence it is statistically significantly more likely that an abused child's abuser in the US will be a christian authority figure, which brings me to my next topic in this thread -

Sexual and psychosexual abuse

Obviously we've already covered the heirarchical structures that allow for the physical abuse and sexual abuse of children to take place and i could go into the proliferation of this type of thing within the catholic church especially but also in other churches and religions (Islam also being very guilty in this area) but what I really want to talk about are the common themes that induce psychosexual trauma in developing children. I am big on lgbt rights and I could go on for quite some time about the guilt and fear associated with being born gay into a christian environment but we've covered a lot of it in the conversion therapy threads already.

What people may not realise is that there is also a huge culture of shame attached to any sexual activity within religion. Religions are obsessed with sex. you can't have it before marriage, you can't masturbate, you can't even look upon a woman with lust in your heart without feeling guilty for it. Unfortunately for people born into these religious families and societies sexuality is a very pervasive part of the human experience and for children going through puberty this is especially true. There's all these new feelings and you can't speak about them. They are wrong and shameful. This kind of sexual repression is extremely unhealthy and while I can see the value in not being overly promiscuous children still need to talk about sex. There is nothing wrong with looking at a girl and thinking 'wow, she's hot' but as a Christian this may bring on feelings of guilt and shame and reinforce the other ideas of being an awful person and your dependance on these religious authority figures that can 'save' you from your evil thoughts and deeds.

In truth you are likely never going to stop young boys masturbating or looking at girls unless you terrify them with tales of eternal torture enough that they are scared of their own sexuality which brings me to my final point -

Terrorism

One of the dictionary definitions of terrorism is -

Terrorism
1. a method of government or of resisting government involving domination or coercion by various forms of intimidation

What else is religion other than a method of governing people through fear? 'You will suffer eternal torture if you don't repeatedly reaffirm your devotion to your god, if you don't strive to attain these impossible standards set by religion.' For children and for the deeply indoctrinated 'hell' is a very real thing... even some of those who have stopped believing still have nightmares of being in hell for rejecting their religion. They know this is illogical but they have developed a phobia from a young age when they were abused by their parents and their communities and their churches and it positively changes their brain chemistry to the point where even though they know it's not logical they are still haunted by this constant terror. I'll talk about this a lot more in my next thread on this subject which will be on religious trauma syndrome as a means of demonstrating the actual psychological harm that religion does.

For now the topic is religious indoctrination of children being child abuse.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003428747/5652786975_Pep0J_xlarge.jpeg

I've outlined why I believe it is and though there are more details that I could give i'd like to hear others' thoughts on this as well.



Accurate and articulate, well said.
The second one should be a good read.

It's a shame how religion turns normal men into pathetic cowards, otherwise there would be a discussion related to this material in the thread.

This post was edited by Morphmcmanerson on Jan 22 2015 08:31am
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Jan 22 2015 10:00am
...if Christianity was able to indoctrinate ( or brainwash ) young minds there would be no legal abortions or gay marriage in America .
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Jan 22 2015 10:02am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Jan 22 2015 08:00am)
...if Christianity was able to indoctrinate ( or brainwash ) young minds there would be no legal abortions or gay marriage in America .


Just because it's not working as well as it used to doesn't mean there aren't still a certain amount of children being victimized and abused by their religious parents.
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Jan 22 2015 10:10am
Quote (ChurchGirl69 @ Jan 22 2015 11:02am)
Just because it's not working as well as it used to doesn't mean there aren't still a certain amount of children being victimized and abused by their religious parents.


...stop already...your statement is based on an anecdote or two and your definition of " victimized and abused " is colored by your own personal agenda . If I teach my children that gay marriage is immoral you will scream abuse...I know how this game is played .
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Jan 22 2015 10:15am
Quote (WidowMaKer_MK @ Jan 22 2015 08:10am)
...stop already...your statement is based on an anecdote or two and your definition of " victimized and abused " is colored by your own personal agenda . If I teach my children that gay marriage is immoral you will scream abuse...I know how this game is played .


bitch bye not everything i talk about has to do with gay issues. but since that's what you're making it about i'll respond to it. i could care less if you tell your inbred children that gays are bad. once they enter the real world they will see their dad is a baffoon.
i was speaking more generally. making your kid believe in talking snakes and water-walkers and then forcing them to base their life around lies is child abuse.

This post was edited by ChurchGirl69 on Jan 22 2015 10:15am
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Jan 22 2015 10:17am
Quote (ChurchGirl69 @ Jan 22 2015 11:15am)
bitch bye not everything i talk about has to do with gay issues. but since that's what you're making it about i'll respond to it. i could care less if you tell your inbred children that gays are bad. once they enter the real world they will see their dad is a baffoon.
i was speaking more generally. making your kid believe in talking snakes and water-walkers and then forcing them to base their life around lies is child abuse.


...wow , what an original attack...insulting my children :blink:
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