Ok then please.. translate for me (even though I am fluent in Greek) this verse -

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Based on that verse alone it is saying we do NOT receive forgiveness until we are baptized. It also says we do not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until we are baptized. How can we enter heaven without those 2 being fulfilled? (forgiveness and the Holy Spirit)

Don't blame it on bad translation. That is the translation. You just refuse to believe it. Again you are saying "Well most of the NT says this.. so I'm not going to place any merit in that verse". That's absurd and ridiculous. You call me a cherry picker? That is cherry picking at it's finest. I also did not deny that everything you said is essential. I do believe it is. But so is baptism. Hate to break it to you bud.. but the bible is clear on it.




I also never said baptism comes BEFORE faith. It takes faith to be baptized.. But baptism is essential when you believe, confess, and repent. All 4 of those are FAITH.

This post was edited by Dune1 on Mar 10 2012 08:28pm

My belief is that the baptism here is a spiritual baptism that occurs the moment was believe on Jesus Christ for salvation. It is not water baptism. There is more than one type of baptism in the bible. That's where you err.

Again if it was baptism of the Holy Spirit.. why do you not receive the Holy Spirit until after the baptism? Seems a little redundant..

Also, why did the apostles baptize (with water) when they converted people? Well.. because that is what was commanded of them through the Great Commission and what Peter spoke of in Acts..

Because I never said that they weren't commanded to baptize. The baptism ALWAYS comes after salvation.

You cannot possess the Holy Spirit unless you are saved.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Yet in Acts we find a group of saved individuals who have the Holy Spirit who haven't been baptized.


Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They were baptized AFTER they had already been saved. The baptism doesn't save. It's not the water that saves us, it's Jesus Christ.

It's the Gospel that saves. Ro 1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel does not include baptism:

1Co 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 1Co 1:17 ¶ For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

That's why baptism always comes after confessing Christ as Lord and Savior. It's a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.


http://robertwells.tripod.com/baptism2.html

This post was edited by xfrodobagginsx on Mar 10 2012 08:45pm

Religion is a creation of man's, and thats why is fails in regards to being anything concrete.
Societies change - with them ideas of people, and when it is religion that must adapt & answer to the changed wills of these people; such religion makes the history books - as MYTH.

In the usage of christian religious context God is a mearly a instument of men if you will.
Simply a tool to take on followers using false words of other men using the guise of divinity.

This post was edited by TradeBot on Mar 10 2012 08:49pm

Here comes the Theology

Certain groups (or individuals) in the bible (mostly Acts) received the same "Spirit" that the apostles did. The Holy Spirit they received allowed them to perform miracles. Speaking in tongues was the affirmation that they received the same Spirit the apostles did.



So yeah.. not the same spirit we received. I don't know about you.. but I can't perform miracles, nor did I speak in tongues when I received the Holy Spirit.

Also -



Uh oh.. seems that baptism brings salvation...

And -



Again another verse saying baptism is essential to "wash" (or forgive) your sins.

You don't make peace with others howbeit you call them murderers, as you murder them.

I don't think heaven is a real thing.

It's a cool concept though, I'd be so down for 72 virgins.

lold