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Aug 14 2025 01:36pm
Slavery would kill productivity; slaves only do what they are told. Besides, the West needs qualified people—slave labor like a hundred years ago can now be done by machines much more cheaply. You need to be able to improve your quality of life by working hard and being creative.
Morals are anything but objective. In fact, it’s easier than ever to change what people perceive as morally good. To be able to make a moral judgment, we need information, and we get a large part of it from social media.
Murder is bad—but convince someone that Person X is a threat to the lives of ten others, and they might perceive murdering Person X as morally good. Starting a war is bad. Starting a war to defend someone from an obvious threat might be seen as good if people are convinced.
Saving a drowning person is morally good. Saving a drowning refugee is also morally good. But report twenty incidents of crimes committed by refugees, and suddenly saving a drowning refugee might be perceived as morally bad.

Morals are not objective.



I can only share my personal perception; I have no quantifiable data for it.
Improved: minority rights, women’s rights, handling of violence, the way we raise our children
Worsened: we’ve become more selfish, children are perceived as a burden, wealth has brought arrogance and some kind of apathy


being able to convince someone of a lie doesn't mean morality is not objective

why are minority rights good if morality is relative? woman's rights? everything you listed, none of that matters at all if morality is relative. it's equally good if I am selfish or generous, if I make minorities slaves or treat them equally. There's no upward progression if there's no objective moral law above the current law of whatever society we reside in. Nothing matters at all in your world view fundamentally, it's all illusory.
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Aug 14 2025 01:55pm
being able to convince someone of a lie doesn't mean morality is not objective

why are minority rights good if morality is relative? woman's rights? everything you listed, none of that matters at all if morality is relative. it's equally good if I am selfish or generous, if I make minorities slaves or treat them equally. There's no upward progression if there's no objective moral law above the current law of whatever society we reside in. Nothing matters at all in your world view fundamentally, it's all illusory.


That’s why I shared only my personal perspective, rather than claiming a universal morality. You might feel completely differently about improving women’s rights. That’s the lack of objectivity in morals.
The sum of your experiences shapes your moral perspective, which can evolve with new information or shifting circumstances.
The fact that morality can change doesn’t make it meaningless or an illusion it makes it fluid.

it's equally good if I am selfish or generous, if I make minorities slaves or treat them equally.


There might be people who see it exactly this way. Right now, an overwhelming majority might disagree, and you would face consequences for breaking the law if you take slaves. Could the circumstances change? Maybe.

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Aug 14 2025 01:55pm
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Aug 14 2025 02:11pm
That’s why I shared only my personal perspective, rather than claiming a universal morality. You might feel completely differently about improving women’s rights. That’s the lack of objectivity in morals.
The sum of your experiences shapes your moral perspective, which can evolve with new information or shifting circumstances.
The fact that morality can change doesn’t make it meaningless or an illusion it makes it fluid.



There might be people who see it exactly this way. Right now, an overwhelming majority might disagree, and you would face consequences for breaking the law if you take slaves. Could the circumstances change? Maybe.


your own reply proves my point. you cannot say that women's rights have "improved" or that selfishness has "worsened" while simultaneously claiming morality is not objective. those words "improved" and "worsened" are moral judgments that require an objective standard to be meaningful. without an objective morality, all you have are personal preferences.

every instance of you saying "morality" should be replaced with "preference". I "prefer" my wife doesn't cheat on me, but it's not morally wrong... if it happens she didn't actually do anything bad. I "prefer" my child lives a good life, but if someone kidnaps them it's not morally wrong just not my preference and they didn't actually do anything bad.


the fact that people can be convinced of a lie about a moral issue doesn't make morality itself relative. the lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it. you're right that our perceptions are fluid, but that doesn't mean the moral truth is.

simply because I feel one way about a subject and you feel the opposite way doesn't mean we are both equally correct, this doesn't logically follow.

This post was edited by majorblood on Aug 14 2025 02:20pm
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Aug 14 2025 02:40pm
your own reply proves my point. you cannot say that women's rights have "improved" or that selfishness has "worsened" while simultaneously claiming morality is not objective. those words "improved" and "worsened" are moral judgments that require an objective standard to be meaningful. without an objective morality, all you have are personal preferences.

every instance of you saying "morality" should be replaced with "preference". I "prefer" my wife doesn't cheat on me, but it's not morally wrong... if it happens she didn't actually do anything bad. I "prefer" my child lives a good life, but if someone kidnaps them it's not morally wrong just not my preference and they didn't actually do anything bad.


the fact that people can be convinced of a lie about a moral issue doesn't make morality itself relative. the lie is still a lie, even if everyone believes it. you're right that our perceptions are fluid, but that doesn't mean the moral truth is.

simply because I feel one way about a subject and you feel the opposite way doesn't men we are both equally correct, this doesn't logically follow.


I can explain my perception and argue for it. For example, I feel that women’s rights have improved because they are now allowed to vote, study, earn money, and choose their partners. You might feel completely different, perhaps believing that these changes have harmed the traditional family structure you value. You’d hope there were an objective standard, but there isn’t. It’s just us observing reality and interpreting it within our personal limitations.

What you call “moral truth” often refers to topics where a large group of people shares an almost uniform perception, which then often gets reflected in laws. Take killing, for example. We have an evolutionary instinct to see killing as bad. Likely because this feeling helped us survive as a group. Since almost everyone feels the same way, it seems like a moral truth. But as thinking beings, we can challenge even this under certain circumstances.

For instance, if a person carrying a deadly, fast spreading virus enters a large crowd, the moral imperative to save hundreds might override the moral prohibition against killing.

In the end, it’s just us as a group, community, or species defining what’s right and wrong. Sometimes our perception is uniform, and you get to apply your moral truth. Other times, it’s split 50:50.
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Aug 14 2025 05:14pm
It is you who has it completely backwards.

What do you mean "government is denying people legal protections and benefits"? There are no legal protections and benefits that mother nature would be giving you at birth, that the government could deny.

Government extends extra protection to families because it wants to encourage people having children. Otherwise there will be fewer wage slaves to pay the taxes in the next generation.

It's reality, not some fairy tale you've been taught at school. Nobody cares about you and your wellbeing. Or about mine, for that matter. And especially not the government.

Also, above all things, why would others' people taxes go to supporting gay couples having sex? Government doesn't have it's own money.

And kids who don't have both parents are not doing as well as the ones who do. So why on Earth would the government be supporting this kind of procreation as well?


Tax payer money isn’t funding gay sex…
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