Quote (Sioux @ Mar 10 2023 01:53am)

What evidence do you have for that claim besides your predilection for racism?

Quote (Sioux @ 10 Mar 2023 07:42)

Seems like a lot of conjecture with no data just to side with the racists. People exonerated for murder are disproportionately black.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 9 2023 11:19pm)

Whats the impact when you do it in one case? An impact on an individual, and what they would or wouldn't do with their freedom
Whats the impact when you do it systematically, in every case? An impact on a society, and the violent crimes that threaten the public, committed by those violent criminals set free- and those emboldened by the knowledge nothing will be done to them

That's what we're seeing right now in Minneapolis. A gigantic spike in crime, especially random violent crime against strangers, perpetrated by young criminals with no fear of the law and knowing they'll face no consequences.
Try parking a Kia or Hyundai in North Minneapolis lmao. Maybe you can put some notches on the side of it for how many murders it was involved in before you find it abandoned some day (and totaled).


The benefit of locking up these murderers until their 30s- or preferably, well beyond, or never at all- is that they won't threaten society again. A sense of justice or vengeance isn't a pragmatic function, nor is society better served by the potential of their rehabilitation weighed against the near-certainty they'll commit more violent crime in the future. But that's just two teens. Now apply it to an entire city, and you get what we're at in Minneapolis, where most criminals being arrested for violent crimes already have 30+ convictions, often many felonies, some already have murders too. And Mary Moriarty here represents a significant change in how things will be handled in the future- even more leniently.

Quote (Handcuffs @ 10 Mar 2023 17:30)

While I understand the considerations of future crimes being committed and of recidivism, and also of the cascading potential impact that a knowledge of lessened consequences has on crime rates within the community at-large, I just don't see how harsher punishments are going to move a city like Minneapolis to a better future. I'll need to do more independent research on this, but my knowledge thus far suggests that crime is a symptom of a much larger issue--not the issue itself.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 10 2023 08:42am)

Even if crime is a symptom of a larger issue (poverty, deprivation, lack of opportunity, neglect), letting it go unchecked actively undermines any efforts at solving these root causes. How are you going to address poverty and lack of opportunity if a place is a crime-infested hellhole where theft and street violence are rampant? Will anyone open shops or offices in such a place, create jobs or invest in dilapidated infrastructure? Will government checks and better public schools amount to much if you let drug dealers and gangs roam free?

Quote (Handcuffs @ 10 Mar 2023 17:46)

I don't know it's about letting people "roam free", so much as it is acknowledging that the American "justice" system is largely a vengeance/punishment system, and we do next to nothing in terms of rehabilitation.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 10 2023 08:55am)

That's not an either-or situation if you ask me. We can acknowledge the shortcomings of the justice system and its failure at rehabilitation and still argue that removing murderers or serial criminals from the streets is a net positive to their community.

And even if liberals don't like to hear this, deterrence is still a factor. If young people who are on the fence watch severe crime lead to significant punishment, it will make it a tad harder for them to go down the same path, for whatever that's worth. On the flip side, if they watch severe crime being caught by the police and then go actively unpunished by the justice system, what kind of signal does that send? Yes, conservatives have often times abused the deterrence argument as a cover for their desire for vengeance, but this does not mean that deterrence is completely pointless or ineffective either.

Quote (Handcuffs @ Mar 10 2023 10:30am)

While I understand the considerations of future crimes being committed and of recidivism, and also of the cascading potential impact that a knowledge of lessened consequences has on crime rates within the community at-large, I just don't see how harsher punishments are going to move a city like Minneapolis to a better future. I'll need to do more independent research on this, but my knowledge thus far suggests that crime is a symptom of a much larger issue--not the issue itself.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 10 2023 11:30am)

I can see it easily making a big difference on moving that needle. A vastly disproportionate amount of violent crime is being committed by a tiny sliver of recidivist felons who are known to law enforcement, and notably are being repeatedly arrested and convicted and yet still being set free every time. The police chief estimated its about 2 to 3 dozen felons in the city responsible for almost all of the rampant auto thefts in the city- nearly 100 per week. And they've been arrested dozens of times each. AG Ellison's answer? Lock them in prison? No. He's suing Kia and Hyundai for their car models being stolen even though they comply with all anti-theft regulations.

Put the serial offenders in prison and crime would evaporate overnight, and we'd see a lot less people willing to join their ranks

Quote (Handcuffs @ 10 Mar 2023 17:56)

I do think deterrence is a factor, I don't deny that. I just don't think that deterrence via harsher punishments is the boon to a society that conservatives seem to suggest that it is or would be.