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Oct 9 2014 10:12am
Quote (Skinned @ 9 Oct 2014 06:57)
I thought we were talking about torture dungeons.  Get out the cat of nine tails, you're damned for eternity if you don't know the safe word.



safe word? we don need no stinkin' safe word
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Oct 9 2014 10:29am
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 9 2014 06:14am)
How does the thought of an all just, all loving God torturing your non-Christian friends/family for eternity effect you emotionally?


Expanding on that...

Do you think Hell is actually eternal punishment?

Will non-believers get the chance to redeem themselves before they are judged?

It's a bit tricky, because some Christians believe that people have to be exposed to the gospel, otherwise God will not judge them for rejecting it. I'm wondering what is the level of exposure necessary. Many atheists have not even cracked open a Bible, yet they are non-believers and will be judged for it. Give me your thoughts on God's standards for judgement. Scriptural backing would be nice.

This post was edited by IceMage on Oct 9 2014 10:31am
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Oct 9 2014 02:09pm
Quote (IceMage @ 9 Oct 2014 11:29)
Expanding on that...

Do you think Hell is actually eternal punishment?

Will non-believers get the chance to redeem themselves before they are judged?

It's a bit tricky, because some Christians believe that people have to be exposed to the gospel, otherwise God will not judge them for rejecting it.  I'm wondering what is the level of exposure necessary.  Many atheists have not even cracked open a Bible, yet they are non-believers and will be judged for it.  Give me your thoughts on God's standards for judgement.  Scriptural backing would be nice.



Before I lost faith in religion, And even when I was a minister I felt that people who led their lives on a path parallel to that of the teachings of Jesus no matter what God they worshiped or if they worshiped no God, but if they treated their fellow man in a manner that they would want logically to be treated then they would be alright.

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Oct 9 2014 02:11pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 9 2014 07:29pm)
It's a bit tricky, because some Christians believe that people have to be exposed to the gospel, otherwise God will not judge them for rejecting it.  I'm wondering what is the level of exposure necessary.  Many atheists have not even cracked open a Bible, yet they are non-believers and will be judged for it.  Give me your thoughts on God's standards for judgement.  Scriptural backing would be nice.

if Jesus isn't there to bear the burden of their sins then they'll have to do it themselves, and God's punishment is eternal (perfect justice of the perfect being) from what i've understood.

Quote (IceMage @ Oct 9 2014 11:17pm)
A nice sentiment, but I'm interested in a scriptural answer from a Christian.

i don't think any Christian denomination believes that being saved from eternal damnation into eternal grace is possible without Jesus' sacrifice - whether it be from Calvinist predetermination to the "solely grace" of the Lutherans to the Catholics and the Orthodox with their (somewhat) righteous lives and grace. the only issue that deserves any consideration here is whether or not those who have not heard of the Gospel / have been born before it are to be judged.
the Jews of olden times are probs given a free pass tho.

This post was edited by Gastly on Oct 9 2014 02:27pm
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Oct 9 2014 02:17pm
Quote (Valhalls_Sun @ Oct 9 2014 03:09pm)
Before I lost faith in religion, And even when I was a minister I felt that people who led their lives on a path parallel to that of the teachings of Jesus no matter what God they worshiped or if they worshiped no God, but if they treated their fellow man in a manner that they would want logically to be treated then they would be alright.


A nice sentiment, but I'm interested in a scriptural answer from a Christian.
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Oct 9 2014 03:29pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 9 2014 06:14am)
How does the thought of an all just, all loving God torturing your non-Christian friends/family for eternity effect you emotionally?


Good question. It's an emotional concept obviously...we want to yell not fair! The whole point of Him being just is that He is fair. How do you feel if your family/friends did a crime that landed them in prison for the rest of their lives? While in prison they are beaten and tortured, you would claim it is not fair, but they are being punished for their crimes. In the same way, both Christians and non-Christians alike should be punished and tortured for eternity for not following God's law and rejecting God. But God did something we wouldn't consider fair and offered his Son to take our place. Now we can accept that gift or not...If we don't then we can try to claim it isn't fair, but it is. If we accept the offer we can claim it is fair, but it isn't.
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Oct 9 2014 03:55pm
Quote (IceMage @ Oct 9 2014 03:17pm)
A nice sentiment, but I'm interested in a scriptural answer from a Christian.


Interesting follow up. I have been trying to figure out what the bare minimum is...but honestly if you are aiming for that bare minimum then you are missing the whole point that being a Christian is like being invited to a party not a funeral.
Biblical references to hell:

Matt 8- "11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

-Talking to the centurion. Some Gentiles will join into the inheritance of the chosen people(the Jews), but some "Jews" will not go to heaven.

Matt 13:"40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

-After the parable of the soils: They will be thrown in a blazing furnace. repeats in v 50

Revelations 19:20 -But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur

Rev 21:8 -But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
-Notice "the second death". Another reason why people believe hell is literal.

And yes i understand the last 2 are from revelations which is highly symbolic. Now most Christians believe hell is a literal separation from God. I would like to point out that I don't believe it is biblical that Satan is in charge of hell, but I wouldn't mind someone proving me wrong. I believe the concept of Satan being a ruler of hell is from the common Roman belief of Hades/Jupiter.

______________________________________________
Will non-believers get to redeem themselves?

I don't believe so. Although the Bible is somewhat vague, I will point to two parables that I believe show that non-believers do not.

1st:
The Rich Man and Lazarus: Luke 16

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Notice hear that the rich man was not given a chance to repent before he was in heaven. Furthermore read line 31: even if someone rises from the dead. I feel like that is the state of many hearts: even if they get to heaven, saw God in all his glory...they would still choose to go their own way. I mean look at the JEws... They saw a pillar of fire and a cloud, they crossed over a giant body of water on dry ground, saw the earth eat people and fire consume the guilty, they were fed by flour like dew and birds that fell into their laps...ad yet they disobeyed and complained.

2nd:
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Notice these people thought they were Righteous/Christians. But they will be sent away as well without a chance to repent. Also notice they will be sent away into eternal punishment.


Do people need to be exposed to the gospel?

Romans 1: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

It says that God is obvious in nature so that men are without excuse.

_________________________________________
Finishing up: Yes I believe hell is an eternal place of torture for those who don't believe.
So now what is the bare minimum?

Romans 10:
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9[B] If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Declare Jesus is Lord
Believe that God raised him from the Dead.
=Biblical Bare minimum.

As a side thought, I believe those who notice the existence of God, acknowledge their own sin and short comings when compared to God. Ask God for help for their sins and walk with God, may be able to also be in heaven.
But if they aren't, God is still just even if he only saves a few from hell.




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Oct 9 2014 03:58pm
Quote (IceMage @ 9 Oct 2014 13:17)
A nice sentiment, but I'm interested in a scriptural answer from a Christian.


I thought he was a Christian, he said he was a Minister! :lol:
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Oct 9 2014 04:00pm
Quote (HighschoolTurd @ Oct 9 2014 04:58pm)
I thought he was a Christian, he said he was a Minister!  :lol:


The word "Christian" is thrown around loosely ever since it was coined. Many people claim to carry the "true gospel" without knowing what they believe. With that being said, it is possible he was a Christian minister and just didn't back it up with a scriptural answer.
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Oct 9 2014 04:25pm
Interesting stuff, thanks for the well thought-out response.

Quote (wofire @ Oct 9 2014 04:29pm)
Good question. It's an emotional concept obviously...we want to yell not fair! The whole point of Him being just is that He is fair. How do you feel if your family/friends did a crime that landed them in prison for the rest of their lives? While in prison they are beaten and tortured, you would claim it is not fair, but they are being punished for their crimes. In the same way, both Christians and non-Christians alike should be punished and tortured for eternity for not following God's law and rejecting God. But God did something we wouldn't consider fair and offered his Son to take our place. Now we can accept that gift or not...If we don't then we can try to claim it isn't fair, but it is. If we accept the offer we can claim it is fair, but it isn't.


Well, if friends/family went to jail for a legit crime, I would not feel that it was an injustice.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you can accept the Christian view of God's justice. You have to wonder though, knowing God gave us our moral nature, why does my moral nature tell me that my non-Christian friends/family shouldn't be tortured for eternity? I'd bet that the vast majority of Christians would agree with that feeling.

This post was edited by IceMage on Oct 9 2014 04:27pm
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