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May 17 2020 03:55pm
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May 17 2020 05:33pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ 17 May 2020 23:34)
Sounds a lot like government picking winners and losers.


what? noooooo. how could anyone ever have that impression, especially with someone who values transparency, integrity, and strict divestment from their businesses as much as trump...
he's strictly in it for the american working man. that's his top priority!

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May 17 2020 09:35pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ May 17 2020 04:34pm)
Sounds a lot like government picking winners and losers.


When the government tells a successful small business owner in a county with zero coronavirus cases that he has to shut down and go bankrupt and if he chooses to reopen he'll be fined $25,000 and shut down and go bankrupt, it sounds more like the government just picking losers.

It should be on the government to repair to economic damage they inflicted. These orders at the state and federal level to contain covid-19 have a cost, and its being paid.by the people.

https://www.startribune.com/lawmakers-jump-into-dispute-between-ellison-restaurants-testing-rules/570550582/

Those were all successful bars and restaurants that were doing well until a few months ago. Now they're going bankrupt because of a government order, and the urban district AG vows to sink any rural businesses that try to stay afloat. The government picked these businesses and told them they had to shut down and shoulder all the costs of the covid prevention.

This post was edited by Goomshill on May 17 2020 09:41pm
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May 17 2020 10:16pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 17 2020 11:35pm)
When the government tells a successful small business owner in a county with zero coronavirus cases that he has to shut down and go bankrupt and if he chooses to reopen he'll be fined $25,000 and shut down and go bankrupt, it sounds more like the government just picking losers.

It should be on the government to repair to economic damage they inflicted. These orders at the state and federal level to contain covid-19 have a cost, and its being paid.by the people.

https://www.startribune.com/lawmakers-jump-into-dispute-between-ellison-restaurants-testing-rules/570550582/

Those were all successful bars and restaurants that were doing well until a few months ago. Now they're going bankrupt because of a government order, and the urban district AG vows to sink any rural businesses that try to stay afloat. The government picked these businesses and told them they had to shut down and shoulder all the costs of the covid prevention.


If people start committing suicide over this, I suspect were going to see some politician murder attempts.
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May 17 2020 10:18pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 18 May 2020 05:35)
When the government tells a successful small business owner in a county with zero coronavirus cases that he has to shut down and go bankrupt and if he chooses to reopen he'll be fined $25,000 and shut down and go bankrupt, it sounds more like the government just picking losers.

It should be on the government to repair to economic damage they inflicted. These orders at the state and federal level to contain covid-19 have a cost, and its being paid.by the people.

https://www.startribune.com/lawmakers-jump-into-dispute-between-ellison-restaurants-testing-rules/570550582/

Those were all successful bars and restaurants that were doing well until a few months ago. Now they're going bankrupt because of a government order, and the urban district AG vows to sink any rural businesses that try to stay afloat. The government picked these businesses and told them they had to shut down and shoulder all the costs of the covid prevention.


that sucks for those businesses, no doubt, but that's like complaining to the fire department about water damage in your living room, even though that particular part of the house wasn't burning (yet) when they started putting out the fire.

the unfortunate reality of this situation is that businesses like that are hit particularly hard - and a competent response of the federal government would have been to account for that while shelling out billions of relief dollars, instead of making sure to favour red states, mitch mcconnells pet projects to help with his re-election, and donnies private business interests.

to blame the state governors for something that trump messed up (a halfway competent response to covid-19 would have required shorter and less severe quarantine measures), is just your usual attempt to give the situation a partisan spin, trying to shame those that side with the overwhelming majority of experts and scientists on the matter, in order to perpetuate the science deniers' narrative. hack.



This post was edited by fender on May 17 2020 10:26pm
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May 17 2020 10:22pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 17 May 2020 12:13)
Its becoming increasingly clear that as the buck gets pushed around, its landing on small business owners, and especially restaurant owners who are going down faster than nursing home patients in NYC

Put yourself in the shoes of a business owner right now. Those that stay open for carryout / curbside are reporting about 15-50% of their usual revenue, but their normal average profit margins were 5%. Their operating costs don't go down 85% when they lose 85% of sales, you've got property taxes, mortgages, electric, water, etc. Even shutting down temporarily and unplugging freezers there's a restaurant here that had their monthly electric bill drop from $4000 to $2500. You've still got to pay salaries of employees if you want to keep them, otherwise its closing up and laying off everyone. And those that have been furloughed? Even if you re-open and want to bring them back, unemployment paying an extra $600 means that they'll earn more money by staying home watching youtube videos than flipping burgers. The federal government has completely removed the incentive to work. You can't possibly raise wages enough to make that attractive. And on top of that, states are burying restaurants that re-open with regulations for safety, and all the costs of sanitizing stations, disposable menus, PPE- you're paying that. And between extremely low table limits (5 per store in some places) and the publics unwillingness to eat out, even if you re-open there's no way you'll recapture more than 50-75% of previous revenue at best, probably much less. There are restaurant owners up here who are trying to risk re-opening before the governor allows it, putting huge amounts of protection in place like hospital grade foggers and temperature checks at the door and every other measure you can think of- and they're having to crowdfund legal fees as the attorney general threatens them with a $25,000 fine per location.

What are these business owners supposed to do other than march on their state capitols with AR-15s?


Quote (Goomshill @ 17 May 2020 13:44)
well I think we could shuffle around how the impacts are being absorbed across different fields
giving $1200 stimulus checks and $600 bonus to unemployment was not a solution and if anything is actually making the problem worse now. Give people money they can't spend and disincentive working and drive up labor costs? Its a huge problem when unemployment pays more than jobs.
the next round of economic stimulus should be aimed specifically at industries that have been hard hit, giving them capital to restart and incentives to rehire. Ease the burdens and subsidize it up the chain of labor, utilities, mortgages, property taxes, etc at local/state/federal levels. If businesses are going to be told that in order to re-open they have to provide PPE and sanitizing equipment, maybe those are costs that should be shared


You raise good points. I don't really agree with government bailouts in principle, but in this case, you're right, governments are telling these small businesses they cannot operate. I don't really agree with it. The small business assistance from the federal government is nice, but it's not enough.

Personally, I think the shutdowns should end. Anecdotally, people around my parts aren't even social/physical distancing anymore. It's just an extended vacation that is tanking local economies and only mildly reducing community spread of the virus.

Young and middle-aged Americans taking another hit for old people. The Boomers win again.
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May 17 2020 11:30pm
Quote (ThatAlex @ May 17 2020 09:22pm)
You raise good points. I don't really agree with government bailouts in principle, but in this case, you're right, governments are telling these small businesses they cannot operate. I don't really agree with it. The small business assistance from the federal government is nice, but it's not enough.

Personally, I think the shutdowns should end. Anecdotally, people around my parts aren't even social/physical distancing anymore. It's just an extended vacation that is tanking local economies and only mildly reducing community spread of the virus.

Young and middle-aged Americans taking another hit for old people. The Boomers win again.


I can't speak for other states, but California has a set of guidelines for opening up businesses. We've known for months now that the most important thing is to be able to test individuals and to have some form of contact tracing so we can easily contain outbreaks. In my county, I can get a free COVID test whenever I want. We have guidelines for a wide array of businesses ranging from gun ranges to grocery stores. What's your county doing for you?

If people in your area aren't social distancing anymore, that's on them. Every state and county is different. I know that people are taking it extremely seriously here but we're the largest county in the country.
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May 18 2020 12:46am
Quote (ThatAlex @ May 18 2020 12:22am)
governments are telling these small businesses they cannot operate. I don't really agree with it. The small business assistance from the federal government is nice, but it's not enough.


Unfortunately, there are some businesses that just can't operate safely.

Brothels are illegal because it's not safe to have people freely walking in off the street and having sex randomly. Yes, I realize that some forms of prostitution are allowed in some areas, but you get the general idea.

Likewise, indoor movie theaters are a threat to public health now, just as brothels would be if they were allowed to operate freely. The government has to say to both of those business "sorry, you can't exist". They don't need to be bailed out.

The only question is: Which types of business can operate safely and which ones can we just let collapse? Where do we draw the line?

This post was edited by Kayeto on May 18 2020 12:56am
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