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Nov 6 2021 03:54pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 6 2021 04:52pm)
Fossils were subsidized because society requires reliable and affordable energy. It has only been in recent years that renewables have become competitive or even cheaper than fossils


Renewables have been cheaper than fossil fuels before subsidy for over 10 years now.

If we hadn't actively subsidized exploration and drilling it's all but certain that time period would have been extended back 20 years.
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Nov 6 2021 03:59pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Nov 6 2021 05:54pm)
Renewables have been cheaper than fossil fuels before subsidy for over 10 years now.

If we hadn't actively subsidized exploration and drilling it's all but certain that time period would have been extended back 20 years.


Speak in $/mwh.

You're just spewing bullshit.

Thermodynamics doesn't agree with your propaganda.

And even then, renewables aren't dispensable besides biofuel. And nuclear.

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Nov 6 2021 04:00pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:00pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ Nov 6 2021 04:59pm)
Speak in $/mwh.

You're just spewing bullshit.

Thermodynamics doesn't agree with your propaganda.

And even then, renewables aren't dispensable besides biofuel.


That is in $/mwh. We've been over this. Several times. Over several years.

Do you not remember? This is where the meme "Endless can't even do percentage equations" came from. Because you said even if we took the efficiency of solar panels from 15 to 30% it wouldn't be much, and I pointed out that's double efficiency and would make solar panels the premier source of power.

Quote (Landmine @ Nov 6 2021 05:01pm)
Exaggerating, it has only been the last couple years and the price drop is because it’s simply unreliable.


Wrong.

Prices have been dropping consistently for over 20 years.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Nov 6 2021 04:01pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:01pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Nov 6 2021 03:54pm)
Renewables have been cheaper than fossil fuels before subsidy for over 10 years now.

If we hadn't actively subsidized exploration and drilling it's all but certain that time period would have been extended back 20 years.



Exaggerating, it has only been the last couple years and the price drop is because it’s simply unreliable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2021/04/20/why-renewables-cause-blackouts-and-increase-vulnerability-to-extreme-weather/amp/

This post was edited by Landmine on Nov 6 2021 04:03pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:11pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Nov 2021 21:48)
Coal companies are retaining profit by automating. They can ship less coal over time with a higher margin using technology. That's the simple reason why coal stocks are not going down.

Not a convincing argument. I don't see why automating the processes of coal mining should only have become available in recent years, so that an increase in their profit margins coincides with declining long-term prospects.

Quote
Also, coal jobs in all of the U.S. are only like 40k. That's.... not a lot of jobs. At all. The suffering that will be caused by even a total elimination of coal jobs is about one week of new jobs numbers in the U.S.

Families and whole communities depend on these jobs. The shop owners in coal towns, the manufacturers of mining equipment, and so on and forth.

But okay, I'll admit that even then, it's still not a ton of jobs at stake when we look at the national level (the whole US). The impact would of course be a lot bigger in certain places, like WV.

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"Human infrastructure" is accurate. Sorry you would prefer a term that's more loaded in favor of the side you support, but you don't control language. The number one piece of infrastructure any country has is their skill acquisition infrastructure, which is education.

And which share of the multi-trillion dollar spending in this "human infrastructure" bill is slated for actual education?

According to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/budget-reconciliation-bill-build-back-better-act/
only less than $400 billion out of the $1750 billion left in the latest proposal are going to pre-K while the rest is intended for non-education things like climate change, housing, child tax credits or medicare expansion.



Quote
Solar has been cheaper than coal for over 10 years now before you account for subsidy. After you account for subsidy (which massively favors fossil fuels) it's been cheaper for several years. That's why you see renewables going up fucking everywhere, and virtually no new coal plants outside of third world countries that are still industrializing.

True. The key problem with solar is still that supply cannot be steered to meet demand like with fossil energy. Even if solar/renewables are cheaper than fossils, we still cannot rely on them for the entirety of our energy production.



Quote
Your middle line is massively dishonest. You are in favor of government distorting market forces towards keeping these jobs longer than they are economically viable. If we had allowed the market to find a solution we would have been actively fining fossil fuels for the long-term damage they cause to the environment, and the long-term damage they cause to their surrounding communities in the form of pollution and medical costs to their workers.

If we were working in a strictly market system with all factors accounted for, we would not be dependent on fossil fuels. The natural rate of elimination of these jobs is that they would virtually all be eliminated decades ago.

All of this is only true if we posit that the economy should always follow a holistic approach that takes fairness and externalities into full account.

Simply put, wasting desolate shitholes in the middle of nowhere, like West Virginia, the Dakotas or the Middle East, with pollution, contaminated water and any such things, so that the rest of society can thrive based on cheap and reliable energy, has been a worthwhile tradeoff for the longest time. Only recently has a worsening global warming tipped this calculus against the use of fossils.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Nov 6 2021 04:14pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:13pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Nov 6 2021 10:54pm)
Renewables have been cheaper than fossil fuels before subsidy for over 10 years now.

If we hadn't actively subsidized exploration and drilling it's all but certain that time period would have been extended back 20 years.


i just checked my last electricity bill and realised that i am paying the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to renewables, their massive subsidies and their inability to provide a steady supply

it doesnt matter how many times you repeat this stupid lie
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Nov 6 2021 04:16pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 6 2021 05:11pm)
Not a convincing argument. I don't see why automating the processes of coal mining should only have become available in recent years, so that an increase in their profit margins coincides with declining long-term prospects.

Families and whole communities depend on these jobs. The shop owners in coal towns, the manufacturers of mining equipment, and so on and forth.

But okay, I'll admit that even then, it's still not a ton of jobs at stake when we look at the national level (the whole US). The imact would of course be a lot bigger in certain places, like WV.

And which share of the multi-trillion dollar spending in this "human infrastructure" bill is slated for actual education?

According to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/budget-reconciliation-bill-build-back-better-act/
only less than $400 billion out of the $1750 billion left in the latest proposal are going to pre-K while the rest is intended for non-education things like climate change, housing, child tax credits or medicare expansion.

True. The key problem with solar is still that supply cannot be steered to meet demand like with fossil energy. Even if solar/renewables are cheaper than fossils, we still cannot rely on them for the entirety of our energy production.

All of this is only true if we posit that the economy should always follow a holistic approach that takes fairness and externalities into full account.

Simply put, wasting desolate shitholes in the middle of nowhere, like West Virginia, the Dakotas or the Middle East, with pollution, contaminated water and any such things, so that the rest of society can thrive based on cheap and reliable energy, has been a worthwhile tradeoff for society for the longest time. Only recently has a worsening global warming tipped this calculus against the use of fossils.


The issue with coal is that it's concentrated. When jobs are lost, it's all lost in some small geographic area that was wholly dependent on the jobs. It's a sad sight. We should be helping those communities to relocate and retrain so they can retain their prosperity. Automation has massively cut down the number of coal jobs. Long-term coal companies can still turn a profit becuase they need virtually no human workers and the third world still needs to industrialize. The big issue is that the large economies that are capable of transitioning, like the U.S., are dragging their feet. We should be transitioning almost entirely to renewables and using that to pull CO2 from the atmosphere.

I'm not saying the current bill is perfect, but the human infrastructure parts would substantially help those impacted by loss of coal jobs even before now.

We should make eliminating externalities a goal to pursue. They are a key inefficiency of the marketplace, and one of the government's key roles is to do its best to eliminate them.


Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ Nov 6 2021 05:13pm)
i just checked my last electricity bill and realised that i am paying the highest electricity prices in the world thanks to renewables, their massive subsidies and their inability to provide a steady supply

it doesnt matter how many times you repeat this stupid lie


Where do you live?

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Nov 6 2021 04:17pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:24pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Nov 2021 23:16)
The issue with coal is that it's concentrated. When jobs are lost, it's all lost in some small geographic area that was wholly dependent on the jobs. It's a sad sight. We should be helping those communities to relocate and retrain so they can retain their prosperity. Automation has massively cut down the number of coal jobs. Long-term coal companies can still turn a profit becuase they need virtually no human workers and the third world still needs to industrialize. The big issue is that the large economies that are capable of transitioning, like the U.S., are dragging their feet. We should be transitioning almost entirely to renewables and using that to pull CO2 from the atmosphere.

I'm not saying the current bill is perfect, but the human infrastructure parts would substantially help those impacted by loss of coal jobs even before now.

We should make eliminating externalities a goal to pursue. They are a key inefficiency of the marketplace, and one of the government's key roles is to do its best to eliminate them.


The... THE key question still remains unanswered: how do you provide base load in a country that has almost entirely transitioned to renewables? Imho, the clean energy transition will take off massively once a convincing technological solution for this problem has been found, but not a day earlier.
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Nov 6 2021 04:25pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Nov 6 2021 05:24pm)
The... THE key question still remains unanswered: how do you provide base load in a country that has almost entirely transitioned to renewables? Imho, the clean energy transition will take off massively once a convincing technological solution for this problem has been found, but not a day earlier.


Nuclear is great for base load, with solar and wind peaking in synch with the peak loads.

It's not actually that hard of a solution for the majority of locations. The hardest part will be overcoming fossil fuels' demonization of nuclear energy.

Only reason we haven't implemented this, like, decades ago, is because of government interferrence with the market and fossil fuel propaganda.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Nov 6 2021 04:26pm
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Nov 6 2021 04:30pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 6 Nov 2021 23:25)
Nuclear is great for base load, with solar and wind peaking in synch with the peak loads.

It's not actually that hard of a solution for the majority of locations. The hardest part will be overcoming fossil fuels' demonization of nuclear energy.


WTF LOL?!?! What makes you think that solar and wind peak in synch with peak loads? Energy demand peaks on cold, dark winter mornings and evenings, solar peaks on hot, sunny summer days. Wind is completely unreliable and doesn't synch up at all with either the daily or seasonal variation in demand.
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