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Sep 14 2021 04:34pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 14 2021 06:00pm)
36% of passionate, hardened opposition against a policy is enough to lead to very bad outcomes if you roll over them, particularly on a topic as emotionally charged as bodily autonomy.
I disagree that America's hyperpolarized, gridlocked political landscape should be used to relativize the popularity of positions or policies.

Side note: Oregon is a very inelastic state which reliably votes for Democrats, but not by overwhelming margins. GWB came within 7k votes of winning it back in 2000. ;)



Tbh, I'm not sure how I would act if I were in Biden's shoes. Shit has already kinda hit the fan when the vaccination campaign stalled too early and opinions on the vaccines hardened. Now, only really bad options are left.
For the record: I wouldn't mind a blanket vaccine mandate for which Biden/Democrats take full responsibility. I prefer a different approach, but I could live with that.

What absolutely rubs me the wrong way, however, is this cowardly hiding behind employers or event organizers/shop owners to impose pressure on the unvaccinated along the lines of you don't have to get vaccinated, but you'll be ostracized from good jobs and all forms of social life if you don't. Your ""choice"".




Why is that unacceptable? I believe in a man's god given right to make horrible, moronic decisions when it comes to his own life. If people are unvaccinated despite better knowledge, catch the virus and die, then so be it. The nation's average IQ and gene pool could use a boost anyway.


Thundercock is so dumb. He thinks abortion opinions swing votes but mandates like these dont.
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Sep 14 2021 04:37pm
Quote (fender @ 15 Sep 2021 00:28)
you're still pretending to buy into the "it's just a personal choice and doesn't affect anyone else" narrative, huh? just ignoring the fact that decent people keep dying needlessly because hospitals are over capacity already with anti-vaxxers...

Then deprioritize unvaccinated covid patients... I don't understand why that's so hard to do. This is what the antivaxxers are effectively asking for. I just genuinely don't get why society should protect them from facing the consequence of their own choices.

Quote

Not a statistical argument. In a country of 331m, you will be able to find examples for pretty much any kind of health outcome, no matter how rare. Just yesterday, I provided sources which look at actual data to find that the risk for minors to die from covid is literally lower than the risk of being struck by lightning...


Quote
also, we both know that no matter which route biden would have taken, you would have gone with a negative spin. blanket mandate: "muh freedumbz! tyranny!1!!" - compromise: "he's cowardly hiding" - nothing: "he has no plan how to handle the pandemic".

and once again you're conveniently leaving out WHY america's "vaccination campaign stalled too early and opinions on the vaccines hardened": because your god emperor, donald trump, decided to make vaccines a partisan issue in the first place - and because many republican governors still pander to that base.

The vaccine campaigns stalled in many European countries too (FRA, ITA, GER and others) and the U.S. were always primed for seeing a particularly high share of antivaxxers. Trump had a negative impact, but the magnitude of his contribution to the subpar vaccination rates is not as high as you think. About 6-10% tops.
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Sep 14 2021 04:43pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ 15 Sep 2021 00:34)
Thundercock is so dumb. He thinks abortion opinions swing votes but mandates like these dont.


Idk. I would assume the share of hard antivaxxers to be significantly lower than the share of hard pro-lifers.
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Sep 14 2021 04:48pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ 15 Sep 2021 00:37)
Then deprioritize unvaccinated covid patients... I don't understand why that's so hard to do. This is what the antivaxxers are effectively asking for. I just genuinely don't get why society should protect them from facing the consequence of their own choices.


Not a statistical argument. In a country of 331m, you will be able to find examples for pretty much any kind of health outcome, no matter how rare. Just yesterday, I provided sources which look at actual data to find that the risk for minors to die from covid is literally lower than the risk of being struck by lightning...



The vaccine campaigns stalled in many European countries too (FRA, ITA, GER and others) and the U.S. were always primed for seeing a particularly high share of antivaxxers. Trump had a negative impact, but the magnitude of his contribution to the subpar vaccination rates is not as high as you think. About 6-10% tops.


citations needed
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Sep 14 2021 04:55pm
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Sep 14 2021 05:00pm
Quote (fender @ Sep 15 2021 12:28am)
you're still pretending to buy into the "it's just a personal choice and doesn't affect anyone else" narrative, huh? just ignoring the fact that decent people keep dying needlessly because hospitals are over capacity already with anti-vaxxers...

https://i.imgur.com/hj99ueB.jpeg

also, we both know that no matter which route biden would have taken, you would have gone with a negative spin. blanket mandate: "muh freedumbz! tyranny!1!!" - compromise: "he's cowardly hiding" - nothing: "he has no plan how to handle the pandemic".

and once again you're conveniently leaving out WHY america's "vaccination campaign stalled too early and opinions on the vaccines hardened": because your god emperor, donald trump, decided to make vaccines a partisan issue in the first place - and because many republican governors still pander to that base.


freak accident, for every story like this we can post somebody having extreme vaccine side effects

both extremely rare, thats life, does not change the overall situation

aside from that you ask for citations when your lazy ass still has to provide proof for a few dozen fake statements like the "ivermectim victims are flooding ICU's" hoax story that you spread, but never took responsibility for

you are in no position to ask for shit
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Sep 14 2021 05:04pm
Quote (excellence @ Sep 14 2021 03:00pm)
free healthcare and education and maybe a $250 gift card to target for starters

re: covid numbers whose fault is that? biden ran on saying he would ‘shut down the virus’ and gave a “mission accomplished” announcement in May? many of his voting cohorts (minorities, recent immigrants, young people) are among the highest unvaccinated rates


We tried that, right? For the first time in my life, I got free fucking healthcare and corporations throwing free shit at me left and right. If an American can't accept THAT, it's time to bring down the hammer if it makes sense to do so. Biden bringing the hammer down on his constituents is a good thing.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 14 2021 03:00pm)
36% of passionate, hardened opposition against a policy is enough to lead to very bad outcomes if you roll over them, particularly on a topic as emotionally charged as bodily autonomy.
I disagree that America's hyperpolarized, gridlocked political landscape should be used to relativize the popularity of positions or policies.

Side note: Oregon is a very inelastic state which reliably votes for Democrats, but not by overwhelming margins. GWB came within 7k votes of winning it back in 2000. ;)



Tbh, I'm not sure how I would act if I were in Biden's shoes. Shit has already kinda hit the fan when the vaccination campaign stalled too early and opinions on the vaccines hardened. Now, only really bad options are left.
For the record: I wouldn't mind a blanket vaccine mandate for which Biden/Democrats take full responsibility. I prefer a different approach, but I could live with that.

What absolutely rubs me the wrong way, however, is this cowardly hiding behind employers or event organizers/shop owners to impose pressure on the unvaccinated along the lines of you don't have to get vaccinated, but you'll be ostracized from good jobs and all forms of social life if you don't. Your ""choice"".




Why is that unacceptable? I believe in a man's god given right to make horrible, moronic decisions when it comes to his own life. If people are unvaccinated despite better knowledge, catch the virus and die, then so be it. The nation's average IQ and gene pool could use a boost anyway.


Too fucking bad! Deciding policy due to the whims of a minority is insane in most circumstances. Unless there is a national security risk, something is blatantly unconstitutional, or people are apathetic, we should give the vocal minority the finger. Should we remove the 2nd amendment? Ban abortion under all circumstances? Abolish gay marriage? Give everyone a free sex change? At some point, it's time to shut the fuck up and do what's best for society. In a hyper-polarized society, if nearly 60% of people agree on something, you should strongly consider enacting that policy.

I don't think it's "cowardly hiding" given that there's nothing to fear. The policy is popular, remember? This is about efficacy and the limits of government power.

It's unacceptable because we don't live in a vacuum. We can't isolate the unvaccinated from the rest of society. We can't force the unvaccinated to pay everyone's medical bills. We can't sue the unvaccinated for liability.
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Sep 14 2021 05:06pm
today in manufactured outrage:



Quote (JohnnyMcCoy @ 15 Sep 2021 01:00)
freak accident, for every story like this we can post somebody having extreme vaccine side effects

both extremely rare, thats life, does not change the overall situation

aside from that you ask for citations when your lazy ass still has to provide proof for a few dozen fake statements like the "ivermectim victims are flooding ICU's" hoax story that you spread, but never took responsibility for

you are in no position to ask for shit


awww... little anti vaxxer got bamboozled by facts again. shut up and know your place, you science-denying crazy person. fucking spreadnecks...
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Sep 14 2021 05:27pm
Quote (fender @ Sep 15 2021 01:06am)
today in manufactured outrage:

https://i.imgur.com/7GMxLVu.jpeg



awww... little anti vaxxer got bamboozled by facts again. shut up and know your place, you science-denying crazy person. fucking spreadnecks...


is that all? thats pathetic even for you

god damn, you arent even trying
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Sep 14 2021 05:32pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ Sep 14 2021 03:34pm)
Thundercock is so dumb. He thinks abortion opinions swing votes but mandates like these dont.


It's almost as if one position is a popular and the other one is very unpopular. Crazy, I know!
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