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Apr 18 2020 05:50pm
Quote (zarkadon @ Apr 18 2020 11:26pm)
As a single entity, there is only one national interest. Right now there can be up to 27 confronting interests. This obviously makes the EU lose potential.

Bureaucracy would be far more agile, decisions would be made faster, infrastructure and wealth would be easier to spread, and therefore allow europeans from all regions to have access to opportunities that allow them to fulfill their potential and indirectly help the state.

A political constitutionally bound union is a much better guarantee of keeping the alliance safe in the long run. Treaties are nice, but that may not guarantee much in the long run. Other countries have nukes and a far more advanced military and intelligence structure... not much we could do if we don't develop our own military powerhouse. Also, the lack of a united political structure keeps us from developing a national identity. If Estonia was invaded, there would be people on the other side of the continent that wouldn't care much about "a random small country that barely contributes to the EU". But if they felt Estonia was part of their own country, then they'd care. See how Americans cared about Pearl Harbor, despite being a shit ton of miles away from their mainland... because it was part of their country that was attacked.

A country with half a billion people, with developed infrastrucute and high wealth per capita, and strong ties with emerging markets like Latin America or North Africa... I don't see how this isn't the perfect recipe for a powerful and influential state. Keep it divided, and they'll eventually be at odds with each other... the US, China and Russia will try to seduce the individual countries to lure them into their influence zone, and all that potential will be gone.


Just because you make an area a country, the vastness in culture and language differences across Europe (despite you saying otherwise) wouldn't make the Spanish give a fuck about Estonia. Overly idealistic would be a nice way of putting it.

The above point also applies to 'conflicting interests' - those conflicts will still be present after further integration. In most countries, significant minorities will not support losing their national identity, which could be reflected in more nationalist governments that oppose a federalist Europe.

EU countries don't spend enough on military, if they did they'd be a bigger geopolitical force right now. You don't need the EU to be a country for that to happen...as a eurosceptic country we always fulfilled our NATO pledge to spend 2% GDP on military and other EU countries didn't. That is a dereliction of duty and not due to some inefficient decision making by member states that would be fixed upon integration.

Maybe because I'm from the UK I have a different view to most Europeans, but I thought most of Europeans see their identities as firstly belonging to their respective countries, then secondly as a European. I also thought the EU had support from Europeans in being a close economic union but less so on the political union aspect...for example, what sort of support do Europeans have for losing all their sovereignty to the point where they aren't a country anymore? I'd be shocked if this was even remotely popular.
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Apr 18 2020 06:31pm
Quote (dro94 @ Apr 18 2020 06:50pm)
Just because you make an area a country, the vastness in culture and language differences across Europe (despite you saying otherwise) wouldn't make the Spanish give a fuck about Estonia. Overly idealistic would be a nice way of putting it.

The above point also applies to 'conflicting interests' - those conflicts will still be present after further integration. In most countries, significant minorities will not support losing their national identity, which could be reflected in more nationalist governments that oppose a federalist Europe.

EU countries don't spend enough on military, if they did they'd be a bigger geopolitical force right now. You don't need the EU to be a country for that to happen...as a eurosceptic country we always fulfilled our NATO pledge to spend 2% GDP on military and other EU countries didn't. That is a dereliction of duty and not due to some inefficient decision making by member states that would be fixed upon integration.

Maybe because I'm from the UK I have a different view to most Europeans, but I thought most of Europeans see their identities as firstly belonging to their respective countries, then secondly as a European. I also thought the EU had support from Europeans in being a close economic union but less so on the political union aspect...for example, what sort of support do Europeans have for losing all their sovereignty to the point where they aren't a country anymore? I'd be shocked if this was even remotely popular.


The splitting of the Roman empire into three sections, with virtually all European conflict happening in the center portion that carved distinct groups into a single country is a good example of why that kind of thing doesn't work.

The carving of the middle east after WW2 into sections while ignoring culture resulting in the current cluster fuck is another good example.
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Apr 18 2020 11:57pm
Quote (zarkadon @ 19 Apr 2020 00:26)
As a single entity, there is only one national interest. Right now there can be up to 27 confronting interests.


coming from a spaniard, that's rather naive idealistic.

Quote (zarkadon @ 19 Apr 2020 00:26)
Bureaucracy would be far more agile, decisions would be made faster, infrastructure and wealth would be easier to spread, and therefore allow europeans from all regions to have access to opportunities that allow them to fulfill their potential and indirectly help the state.

A political constitutionally bound union is a much better guarantee of keeping the alliance safe in the long run. Treaties are nice, but that may not guarantee much in the long run. Other countries have nukes and a far more advanced military and intelligence structure... not much we could do if we don't develop our own military powerhouse. Also, the lack of a united political structure keeps us from developing a national identity.


i think that, generally speaking, we both agree on some of the main flaws, and also some of the core goals the european union SHOULD have, but i think we slightly disagree in terms of how to achieve them - at least on the order.
a somewhat forced unification is always destined to fail imo. the way to achieve a stronger sense of community, in absence of a clearly defined threat or enemy, is economic stability and prosperity. if people realise how much they benefit from the union, if they have the means, the time, and the curiosity to get to know them (all of which can and has been fostered), they will feel closer to their european brothers and sisters. in their intentions, EU leaders got that generally right imo, it just got lost somewhat in the bureaucratic nightmare that it turned into, and by overextending.

that's why i'm so critical of our premature and rapid (in political terms) eastern expansion since 2004: we hadn't secured those goals for even our core members. not only italy and greece, but even spain and france to a degree, were forseeably problematic - at least structurally. adding massive money and stability drains like poland, hungary, romania, and bulgaria was a huge, and maybe even lethal, mistake in achieving anything even resembling a somewhat unified and stable core. i get there was a lot of pressure, huge political and economic opportunities for key players at the time, but that's where vision and leadership could have saved us - that's where we could have created a meaningful privileged partnership framework to promote stable growth without neglecting the already existing problems.

Quote (zarkadon @ 19 Apr 2020 00:26)
If Estonia was invaded, there would be people on the other side of the continent that wouldn't care much about "a random small country that barely contributes to the EU". But if they felt Estonia was part of their own country, then they'd care. See how Americans cared about Pearl Harbor, despite being a shit ton of miles away from their mainland... because it was part of their country that was attacked.


on the topic of belonging and pearl harbor, this might interest you:



Quote (zarkadon @ 19 Apr 2020 00:26)
A country with half a billion people, with developed infrastrucute and high wealth per capita, and strong ties with emerging markets like Latin America or North Africa... I don't see how this isn't the perfect recipe for a powerful and influential state. Keep it divided, and they'll eventually be at odds with each other... the US, China and Russia will try to seduce the individual countries to lure them into their influence zone, and all that potential will be gone.


again, yes in theory, no in regards to the order. polls clearly show that right now, most people don't share our european spirit. any political push towards that is bound to fail. prosperity first. open borders, free trade, free travel, cultural exchange, united currency, eventually align laws and standards... all that has to become second nature and lead to economic stability BEFORE further politically mandated administrative unification.


that said, i don't think that is necessary to create a european army (in a meaningful sense), and imo that could contribute in many aspects:

- it would further promote a sense of european togetherness
- it would be a massive deterrent to any hostile military action
- it could allow us to liberate ourselves somewhat from the abomination that pax americana has become (like mandatory minimum spending, sending our youth to 'defend democracy' in afghanistan, enabling our allies to create terrorists and refugee waves that cost us trillions...)
- in doing so, it would also alleviate some of the logistically and financially problematic division of resources between national, european, and nato commitments (and some of their devastating consequences)
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Apr 19 2020 01:23am






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Quote (dro94 @ 19 Apr 2020 01:50)
Just because you make an area a country, the vastness in culture and language differences across Europe (despite you saying otherwise) wouldn't make the Spanish give a fuck about Estonia. Overly idealistic would be a nice way of putting it.

The above point also applies to 'conflicting interests' - those conflicts will still be present after further integration. In most countries, significant minorities will not support losing their national identity, which could be reflected in more nationalist governments that oppose a federalist Europe.

EU countries don't spend enough on military, if they did they'd be a bigger geopolitical force right now. You don't need the EU to be a country for that to happen...as a eurosceptic country we always fulfilled our NATO pledge to spend 2% GDP on military and other EU countries didn't. That is a dereliction of duty and not due to some inefficient decision making by member states that would be fixed upon integration.

Maybe because I'm from the UK I have a different view to most Europeans, but I thought most of Europeans see their identities as firstly belonging to their respective countries, then secondly as a European. I also thought the EU had support from Europeans in being a close economic union but less so on the political union aspect...for example, what sort of support do Europeans have for losing all their sovereignty to the point where they aren't a country anymore? I'd be shocked if this was even remotely popular.


Like I said, Rome was not build in one day, but the effort it took was well worth it. You can't build a national identity over the course of a single generation, let alone a few years. It's a slow process, but it's a process I believe we can't afford to halt.

Of course, pretty much everyone feels more identified with their nationality than with a euopean nationality. But that's where we are now, and I believe we should try to promote a change in that culture. We should have more paneuropean holidays, our elementary and secondary education should focus more on intraeuropean culture, we should celebrate the historical figures that achieved something significant for European culture as a whole, etc.

Quote (fender @ 19 Apr 2020 07:57)
coming from a spaniard, that's rather naive idealistic.



i think that, generally speaking, we both agree on some of the main flaws, and also some of the core goals the european union SHOULD have, but i think we slightly disagree in terms of how to achieve them - at least on the order.
a somewhat forced unification is always destined to fail imo. the way to achieve a stronger sense of community, in absence of a clearly defined threat or enemy, is economic stability and prosperity. if people realise how much they benefit from the union, if they have the means, the time, and the curiosity to get to know them (all of which can and has been fostered), they will feel closer to their european brothers and sisters. in their intentions, EU leaders got that generally right imo, it just got lost somewhat in the bureaucratic nightmare that it turned into, and by overextending.

that's why i'm so critical of our premature and rapid (in political terms) eastern expansion since 2004: we hadn't secured those goals for even our core members. not only italy and greece, but even spain and france to a degree, were forseeably problematic - at least structurally. adding massive money and stability drains like poland, hungary, romania, and bulgaria was a huge, and maybe even lethal, mistake in achieving anything even resembling a somewhat unified and stable core. i get there was a lot of pressure, huge political and economic opportunities for key players at the time, but that's where vision and leadership could have saved us - that's where we could have created a meaningful privileged partnership framework to promote stable growth without neglecting the already existing problems.



on the topic of belonging and pearl harbor, this might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaKOOqXDnqA



again, yes in theory, no in regards to the order. polls clearly show that right now, most people don't share our european spirit. any political push towards that is bound to fail. prosperity first. open borders, free trade, free travel, cultural exchange, united currency, eventually align laws and standards... all that has to become second nature and lead to economic stability BEFORE further politically mandated administrative unification.


that said, i don't think that is necessary to create a european army (in a meaningful sense), and imo that could contribute in many aspects:

- it would further promote a sense of european togetherness
- it would be a massive deterrent to any hostile military action
- it could allow us to liberate ourselves somewhat from the abomination that pax americana has become (like mandatory minimum spending, sending our youth to 'defend democracy' in afghanistan, enabling our allies to create terrorists and refugee waves that cost us trillions...)
- in doing so, it would also alleviate some of the logistically and financially problematic division of resources between national, european, and nato commitments (and some of their devastating consequences)


It depends on how you build the structure of power. I advocate for a European Parliament with a unique continent-wide constituency and only Pan-European parties, so that we have a chamber that looks at the interests of Europe as a whole... and a European Senate, where each member has its own constituency, and the resulting chamber is designed to make sure that the decisions the Parliament makes don't trample on the interests of the different regions of Europe. The problem we have in Spain is that the lower chamber allows for regional parties, and thus results in a system that is ineffective in acting according to the national interest as a whole.

And don't get me wrong, I don't believe federalists should force the union on the people. The federation must be built on democracy, or it will be destined to fall apart. Yes, the pro-federalists must seduce the people and make them understand the long term benefits of the union.

It's a slow process, and will require time. But the integration of our political and economic structures must also be accompanied by a process of creating a national identity that glues it all together. The threat of an enemy, the glorious past of Greece and the Roman Empire (which essentially laid the foundations of Europe and the western world as a whole), etc... there are several ways to connect with the passionate side of the people in order to slowly build a national identity. Sports could also be used... we could at some point begin to send a European team to the Olympics, and turn it into a matter of national pride against rival superpowers like China, Russia and the US... it would grow on people, plus the incentive for athletes to be selected to be part of such an elite team would be massive.
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Apr 19 2020 07:59am
I want we build a better Europe, we are all brothers :love:
Old people could eventually die tho :evil:


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Apr 19 2020 08:58am
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Apr 19 2020 09:33am
Quote (fender @ 19 Apr 2020 16:58)


gutter press being gutter press ^_^



anyway, there is still a clear difference between the two situations:

- a country having almost no control and being flooded by migrants who are depressing wages in a variety of sectors and putting pressure on a lot of local housing markets.
- a country that is in control intentionally flying in a predetermined number of migrant workers, who are needed in a specific field where no domestic alternative exists, for a predetermined timeframe.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 19 2020 09:33am
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Apr 19 2020 09:38am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Apr 19 2020 05:33pm)
gutter press being gutter press ^_^



anyway, there is still a clear difference between the two situations:

- a country having almost no control and being flooded by migrants who are depressing wages in a variety of sectors and putting pressure on a lot of local housing markets
- a country that is in control intentionally flying in a predetermined number of migrant workers who are needed in a specific field where no domestic alternative exists


What control difference? UK wasn't in Schengen and isn't now.
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Apr 19 2020 10:05am
Quote (Knoppie @ Apr 19 2020 04:38pm)
What control difference? UK wasn't in Schengen and isn't now.


Welcome back nappy lad
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