Quote (Skinned @ May 28 2022 09:43pm)

Their job is to prevent crimes.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 28 2022 07:44pm)

Without any good samaritan law- which apply to civilians as well in all current incarnations- it simply lacks the elements of a crime. There's no action, no intent, no harm caused by them. There's no law against ignorance, cowardice or apathy. Committing a crime means you made a decision, performed an act, caused the harm. It can be indirect intent, like choosing to drink and drive and thus having criminal liability for an unintended accident. It can be failing to perform an action, like negligent care for a child in your custody. It can be an attempt that tried and failed to produce harm, like attempted murder. But what it can't be is merely the existence of an opportunity you failed to act upon, that your proximity gave you an option, one without any preexisting relationship.

There are all kinds of recourses beyond what is criminal. Cops that fail to act according to their sworn duty are violating their code of ethics, grounds for reprimand or dismissal. A city that failed to train officers to intervene can be held liable in civil court for damages.

Quote (Slowtoanger @ May 28 2022 09:52pm)

I think where I was having difficulty with it all is that with police officers, I thought that both moral obligation and legal obligations were aligned because I had no reason to believe that they were separated.

But the reality is that they are separated. I think that's the tough pill that I'm having trouble swallowing.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 28 2022 07:10pm)

Massacre occurred at 11:33
19 cops were in the hallway starting at 12:03
The only shots fired between 11:37 and 12:50 when they breached the door, were reportedly at the police at the doorway at 12:21.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 28 2022 07:44pm)

There are all kinds of recourses beyond what is criminal. Cops that fail to act according to their sworn duty are violating their code of ethics, grounds for reprimand or dismissal. A city that failed to train officers to intervene can be held liable in civil court for damages.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 28 2022 07:10pm)

Its not very hard to wrap your head around. Person A commits a crime. Person B does not commit a crime. Person B does not stop person A from committing a crime. No law exists saying "failure to stop other people from committing crimes is a crime". So person A is guilty of a crime, person B is not.
Again, its an example of when its quite easy to understand when you approach a subject dispassionately and logically, rather than screaming about moral outrage


The chief who spoke is one of those people with the fire under his ass and speaking to protect himself, looking to throw someone to the wolves to save his own skin.
One of the officers who actually got shot being a hero trying to save kids lives, was quoted as saying its a shame they come off looking like cowards for following their tactical plan but its not as big a shame as kids dying as they wish they could have done more. Which seems like a reasonable sentiment.


Facts are, both given what officers knew at the scene and what we know right now, that the situation most resembled a barricaded suspect / hostage scenario. Not an active shooter. With 60 minutes elapsed apparently without the gunman trying to shoot anyone other than responding officers. Which still left those inside the room at risk a la hostage scenario / maybe some needing medical aid (not clear, I mean we're talking rifle caliber). And with a steel door they couldn't force down and a suspect able to shoot through it, its unlikely any attempt to force entry would be successful. So the attempt probably would have just gotten more people killed without neutralizing the gunman. And as long as everyone's running around screaming their moral outrage and steeped heavy in their prejudice, that's just going to bounce off deaf ears.



Massacre occurred at 11:33
19 cops were in the hallway starting at 12:03
The only shots fired between 11:37 and 12:50 when they breached the door, were reportedly at the police at the doorway at 12:21.

The live shooter response scenario was specifically designed to stop events like columbine where shooters are walking around looking for people and killing them on sight. Whereas hostage/barricade scenarios require a different approach. What's being second guessed is the decision to treat it as the latter, and yet there's a good argument it was actually the choice that might have saved lives overall. Its clear the guy wasn't walking room to room shooting people at that point, and the officers knew that at the time.

What would have happened if the officers charged up to the door with no key or bulletproof shield and tried to pry it open? And the gunman just poured rifle fire on them. Do they shoot blindly into the room and risk killing more kids, without any idea if hostages are right on the other side? What do they do when they fail to open the door? They already knew at that point it was going to be virtually impossible to breach without a key. They needed to get the janitor even faster, or what?

Quote (Sioux @ May 28 2022 09:58pm)

Oh and before I forget

Word count: 542
Valid points made: 0
Boots licked: 2

Being longwinded doesn't make you right, you're just a longwinded asshole.

Quote (Goomshill @ May 28 2022 09:10pm)

Its not very hard to wrap your head around. Person A commits a crime. Person B does not commit a crime. Person B does not stop person A from committing a crime. No law exists saying "failure to stop other people from committing crimes is a crime". So person A is guilty of a crime, person B is not.
Again, its an example of when its quite easy to understand when you approach a subject dispassionately and logically, rather than screaming about moral outrage


The chief who spoke is one of those people with the fire under his ass and speaking to protect himself, looking to throw someone to the wolves to save his own skin.
One of the officers who actually got shot being a hero trying to save kids lives, was quoted as saying its a shame they come off looking like cowards for following their tactical plan but its not as big a shame as kids dying as they wish they could have done more. Which seems like a reasonable sentiment.


Facts are, both given what officers knew at the scene and what we know right now, that the situation most resembled a barricaded suspect / hostage scenario. Not an active shooter. With 60 minutes elapsed apparently without the gunman trying to shoot anyone other than responding officers. Which still left those inside the room at risk a la hostage scenario / maybe some needing medical aid (not clear, I mean we're talking rifle caliber). And with a steel door they couldn't force down and a suspect able to shoot through it, its unlikely any attempt to force entry would be successful. So the attempt probably would have just gotten more people killed without neutralizing the gunman. And as long as everyone's running around screaming their moral outrage and steeped heavy in their prejudice, that's just going to bounce off deaf ears.



Massacre occurred at 11:33
19 cops were in the hallway starting at 12:03
The only shots fired between 11:37 and 12:50 when they breached the door, were reportedly at the police at the doorway at 12:21.

The live shooter response scenario was specifically designed to stop events like columbine where shooters are walking around looking for people and killing them on sight. Whereas hostage/barricade scenarios require a different approach. What's being second guessed is the decision to treat it as the latter, and yet there's a good argument it was actually the choice that might have saved lives overall. Its clear the guy wasn't walking room to room shooting people at that point, and the officers knew that at the time.

What would have happened if the officers charged up to the door with no key or bulletproof shield and tried to pry it open? And the gunman just poured rifle fire on them. Do they shoot blindly into the room and risk killing more kids, without any idea if hostages are right on the other side? What do they do when they fail to open the door? They already knew at that point it was going to be virtually impossible to breach without a key. They needed to get the janitor even faster, or what?

Quote (Santara @ May 28 2022 11:01pm)

Massacre *started* at 11:33.