Britons are also a bit more on the chunkier side than Italians/Spaniards. Obesity is a heavy risk factor.

i was ready to dismiss that, thinking that there wasn't such a big difference between the UK and the rest of central europe, but i did a quick search and holy fuck, they are indeed significantly fatter than the rest of us.

i guess that's at least part of the explanation then. man, i could have sworn that belgians were the most obese europeans. no idea why, apparently they aren't even close. maybe they are the leaders in beer consumption per head, or some funny stat like that... or maybe because i saw that meme with their health minister...

That was a really smooth way of saying "THEY'RE FAAAAAT"


To be fair, no one in Europe implemented travel restrictions or quarantining measures for people coming from China, or later Italy, before it was too late. Yes, the UK was in a better position to be successful with such an approach due to being an island, but I cant really blame the government for not doing that.

What they should be blamed for is the lack of preparation in the government, for imposing the shutdown far too late, and for failing to prepare the healthcare system in time, for example by buying enough masks or protective gear. In general, the government was fully aware of what an underfunded, unequipped mess the NHS was and that it would be woefully unfit to handle a pandemic outbreak - but they did nothing to increase its preparedness. On top, Johnson and his government provided weak messaging and served as bad role models, e.g. when Johnson kept ostentatiously shaking people's hands in early March. I guess he paid the price for his personal recklessness, but the damage is already done.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 10 2020 11:43am

All of the above, though our health infrastructure is OK, it's just not at the level of the US, Germany and some other wealthy nations.

Our government went for a herd immunity strategy early on as they thought preventing it would be unstoppable (and they still do believe that). They also erroneously thought coronavirus is mild illness for everyone that isn't geriatic, which proved not to be the case once they saw the ages of people being admitted to critical care in Italy. The scientific advisors to the government were wrong and this meant the response to the pandemic until late March was to keep the economy going as usual. Testing wasn't deemend as important as it was assumed most people would be fine and they can just self isolate - but this has meant people are getting really ill at home then going to hospital shortly before death, which in combination with an underreporting of cases through lack of testing is contributing to our high death rate. In others countries, coronavirus patients with moderate symptoms are monitored more closely and hospitalised before they get to that stage.

Bojo isn't fit to lead the country and many of the government's ministers aren't fit to govern, so I don't think the response was necessarily down to flippancy but rather bad scientific advice coupled with a lack of talent in government positions that led to poor planning.

The government kept saying we were 2-4 weeks behind Italy as we watched deaths in Lombardy go past 500 per day. Yet we didn't even bother to buy extra PPE or ventilators to prepare ourselves. Why? The only logical explanation I can think of is the ministers do not possess the ability to organise, communicate and manage (essentially, governing).

There will be an independent investigation into how the government handled the pandemic as there is with every large scale government response, and I'm convinced it will be a scandal akin to our decision to invade Iraq under the pretence of WMD.

This post was edited by dro94 on Apr 10 2020 11:54am

That minister is apparently pretty good at her job.

Quite the example of "Do as I say, not as I do."

i know literally nothing about her apart from that meme, so i don't find that hard to believe at all. as a matter of fact, it would surprise me if she wasn't, as most european countries tend to hold their government officials to a basic standard of competence and expertise.

There are notable exceptions though. For example think of Berlusconi, who was PM of Italy for 10 years and the dominant figure in Italian politics for over 2 decades. Greece, the UK, Ukraine, Belgium, Austria and the Czech Republic also had their fair share of clown cabinets. And even in countries like Germany or France, we had a lot of blatantly incompetent ministers over the years.

But this isn't an issue that is currently debated. Politicians are happy with the current bureaucracy... and the general population doesn't feel like it's a pressing issue. There's no real stimulus for change. If the EU went and demanded the changes, then it might become a pressing issue. You say that it's Spain's responsibility and up to their decision making, but during the troika years the countries were forced to cut on public spending. Rather than implementing harsh austerity on the population, they could demand for structural changes. Harder to implement, but it would be much more effective in the long term and all parties would benefit from it.



I consider homogenizing the standard of life in Europe a long term goal... it's unthinkable now, but I believe we need to begin laying the groundwork so that it can be achieved in maybe 2-3 generations.

Time of crisis are also times of opportunities... either we implement changes now, or we seriously commit to implementing them once its over. Otherwise we will always be stuck in this endless loop of stagnation and power vacuum within the EU. I understand we're not in the best social, economical and political climate right now, but it often feels like it's never the right time to push for greater integration for some people.

This post was edited by zarkadon on Apr 10 2020 06:05pm

I see where you're coming from. Personally, I'm not opposed to deeper European integration after there was an honest and open debate among Europe's public about such a step. If sufficient majorities of the people in all participating countries agree on deeper European integration and the concrete measures to take for this goal, I'd happily support this path.

What I am vehemently opposed to, however, is what we have seen over the last 25 years: EU bureaucrats and complicit politicians from the member states pursuing the advancement of an "ever closer union", with the endgoal of transferring most national sovereignty to "United States of Europe", in secret without standing up for it. I am vehemently opposed to the sneaky attempts at introducing further integration behind the people's backs while stifling public debate about those steps.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Apr 10 2020 06:21pm