Quote (Djunior @ Mar 31 2023 01:01pm)

Ask yourself if Russia and Ukraine had normal relations before Western interference (coup d'état) and if Russia leased their naval base from Ukraine without issues.

Quote (Djunior @ 31 Mar 2023 20:38)

I obviously meant the recent past but if you want to trade shit posts, what if I told you that Hitler planned to starve all Soviet citizens so you would have your lebensraum.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 31 Mar 2023 21:37)

Your posts read as that as of someone that's an armchair keyboard warrior tbh. As someone that's been to western Ukraine before and after 2014 and has roots in eastern Europe you're just kind of clueless on the dynamics, no offense. Your whole framing is that of some bondaged people breaking away from the yoke of some genocidal neighbor is completely nonsensical. You'd see how nonsensical it is if you actually been there in the past and saw Ukrainians, even in many parts of the west speaking Russian, having a grandmother or a cousin living in Russia, having a wife that's half Russian and so on. My wife's aunt who's from western Ukraine used to do business regularly in Russia prior to 2014 and it was her main source of revenue. Ukraine's relationship was very close to what we see here with Canada, a far cry from the nonsense you're framing.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ 1 Apr 2023 01:29)

The bolded is really the key point of contention in my opinion. The way you and I and most others from the "pro-Ukraine" side in this war believe that a revolt against the Russia-aligned president was organically underway due to their outrage over Yanukovych tearing apart the EU-UA association agreement at the eleventh hour. (Which btw went against Yanukovych's promises from the campaign trail for the 2010 presidential election.)

From that point on, things derailed quickly; Yanukovych deployed his Berkut secret police which violently cracked down on the Euromaidan protesters, who in turn got increasingly violent as well, and so on and forth. The way we see it, the train toward coup-town had already left the station at that point and the West decided to jump the train and try to shape the events such that the outcome would serve our interests (i.e. there is a pro-Western government when the dust settles).



The way the pro-Russian posters see it, the Euromaidan protests were astroturfed by the CIA/Western intelligence from the get go and would never have gotten this explosive without our interference. Hence, the legitimately elected president was ousted by a coup which was illegitimate and never actually represented the will of the Ukrainian people. The constitutional gridlock (between the Moscow-aligned president and the pro-EU parliament) was thus resolved in favor of Western interests, at the expense of the - in their view - "at least half" of the Ukrainian population which would have preferred to remained aligned with Russia.

Quote (Meanwhile @ 1 Apr 2023 01:43)

Big flaw here is that you are completely ignoring the whole background activity of russian secret services over the whole period.
They were aware of the incoming changes since a while and were preventing it since at least... lets take a significant event: Viktor Yushchenko poisoning in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 31 2023 03:45pm)

First of all, you keep saying EU/NATO. Many Ukrainians wanted a closer relationship with Europe due to economic reasons and benefits of EU such as visa free travel, investments, loans, etc, nothing to do with a closer relationship with NATO. That was the western half, that lost the election.

Let's leave out the fact that this coup was western backed and funded for a second. Why do you think it's okay for the half of the country that lost an election to violently depose the elected president? He had the legitimate power to stop pro-EU trade pacts so not sure why you think he somehow went outside the scope of what the president can do.

I mean weren't you posting about how terrible Jan 6 was and how historic of an attack that was? If that was successful and we had Democrat politicians and judges imprisoned or running for the hills and CNN and MSNBC was banned that's what Ukraine is post Maidan. Just strange how you were pearl clutching about the domestic case but this is some beacon of freedom and democracy on display.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 31 2023 07:38pm)

It is not a given that relations between Ukraine and Russia have to deteriorate dramatically just because Ukraine becomes more cordial or economically involved with the EU. Russia's "you're either our friend or their friend, but there is no in between" is a false binary that you're uncritically accepting.

This binary only makes sense for a reactionary, imperialist power which is still mentally trapped in Cold War logic. Or for a corrupt regime which is robbing its own people blind and which would genuinely be threatened by improving democratic standards in its immediate neighborhood.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Mar 31 2023 08:47pm)

Sure. The narrative of the pro-Russia side doesn't hold up to scrutiny for a myriad of reasons. For example, they love to stress that Yanukovych was democratically elected and that a majority of Ukraine's population had thus given a pro-Russia verdict before all the fuckery by foreign intelligence began. Except that even regions which Yanukovych had won by large margins in 2010, like e.g. Kharkiv or Odessa, were resisting the Russian invasion with the exact same kind of valor and determination as pro-Western regions like Kyiv.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ 1 Apr 2023 01:47)

Sure. The narrative of the pro-Russia side doesn't hold up to scrutiny for a myriad of reasons. For example, they love to stress that Yanukovych was democratically elected and that a majority of Ukraine's population had thus given a pro-Russia verdict before all the fuckery by foreign intelligence began. Except that even regions which Yanukovych had won by large margins in 2010, like e.g. Kharkiv or Odessa, were resisting the Russian invasion with the exact same kind of valor and determination as pro-Western regions like Kyiv.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 1 Apr 2023 02:02)

Russia is imperialistic not doubt, they want their sphere of influence (ex-soviet states) which we (the west) were totally okay with them having post dissolution of USSR and that was the understanding on both sides.

You're either with us or with them is pretty accurate how they see it though if they look at the last 20-25 years. I mean they saw NATO add half a dozen countries closer and closer to their borders with no real good reason at a time (1990-2005) really when Russia was in shambles and was no threat to anyone. If the 30+country military alliance continues to grow with each new member joining the EU eventually joining NATO as well why would they all of the suddenly believe Ukraine wouldn't eventually join NATO if they are on the path to join the EU? Our politicians blasted that they will join NATO, Ukraine's pro-west politicians said the same, can you blame them thinking Ukraine will eventually join if they do nothing?

If one thing European military alliances have shown us in the last few hundred years is eventually that military build-up will result in a war. They're not stupid, they weren't simply going to peacefully allow NATO to take their Black sea fleet critical Crimea base, they weren't going to allow a country of 40+ million to be folded in the ever growing military alliance led by a country that for the last 80 years has fought dozens of proxy wars against USSR.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Mar 31 2023 08:02pm)

Russia is imperialistic not doubt, they want their sphere of influence (ex-soviet states) which we (the west) were totally okay with them having post dissolution of USSR and that was the understanding on both sides.

You're either with us or with them is pretty accurate how they see it though if they look at the last 20-25 years. I mean they saw NATO add half a dozen countries closer and closer to their borders with no real good reason at a time (1990-2005) really when Russia was in shambles and was no threat to anyone. If the 30+country military alliance continues to grow with each new member joining the EU eventually joining NATO as well why would they all of the suddenly believe Ukraine wouldn't eventually join NATO if they are on the path to join the EU? Our politicians blasted that they will join NATO, Ukraine's pro-west politicians said the same, can you blame them thinking Ukraine will eventually join if they do nothing?

If one thing European military alliances have shown us in the last few hundred years is eventually that military build-up will result in a war. They're not stupid, they weren't simply going to peacefully allow NATO to take their Black sea fleet critical Crimea base, they weren't going to allow a country of 40+ million to be folded in the ever growing military alliance led by a country that for the last 80 years has fought dozens of proxy wars against USSR.