Quote (cambovenzi @ Jun 10 2020 11:38pm)

Here is the OG, Lysander Spooner:

"The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals. No principle, that is possible to be named, can be more self-evidently false than this; or more self-evidently fatal to all political freedom. Yet it triumphed in the field, and is now assumed to be established. If it really be established, the number of slaves, instead of having been diminished by the war, has been greatly increased; for a man, thus subjected to a government that he does not want, is a slave. And there is no difference, in principle — but only in degree — between political and chattel slavery. The former, no less than the latter, denies a man’s ownership of himself and the products of his labor; and asserts that other men may own him, and dispose of him and his property, for their uses, and at their pleasure.”

Quote (Goomshill @ Jun 10 2020 11:34pm)

Arguments about the legality of secession are bunk. There was no prohibition in the constitution, nor were states bound by some vague interpretation of democracy. Secession was never a legal question, it was a military one. The law was whatever the winner declared it was, might making right. The north didn't win a grand argument by pointing to some words written in a book by dead men. You can harp all you want about lost causes or tyranny of the majority or despotism, but the fact is the north had the mechanization and industrial base to subjugate the south, and felt they had the moral imperative to do so.

Quote (Ghot @ Jun 10 2020 11:41pm)

I'll see your raise and double it...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePlQScWVEso

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jun 11 2020 12:38am)

Can call it genetic fallacy, or ad hom, or whatever. I'm tired.

Point is, you're dismissing something without looking at its merit based on its outward appearance. It's especially ironic since posting dumb videos or links to ridiculous books is one of your hallmarks.

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Cool story. If the south didn't secede because of slavery, somebody really should have told all the people who wrote the declarations of secession, and the confederate constitution.

Quote (thundercock @ Jun 10 2020 10:04pm)

I don't fault Robert E. Lee and the like as human beings. My position is that LEAVING the Union is a traitorous act and these people shouldn't be lionized on US military bases or federal property. If a state wants to have a statue of him or have a statehouse named after him, I'm not opposed to that.

The Civil War IS complicated. However, there's been too much revisionist history IMO and the South is more sympathetic than they should be.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2020 02:47pm)

Why? It was a tumultuous period in our country's history. Dividing the conflict into "traitors" and "heroes" seems like a completely pointless exercise.

Quote (Thor123422 @ Jun 11 2020 03:50pm)

He isn't making a values divide of heroes and villains. They are traitors as a point of fact

Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2020 12:47pm)

Why? It was a tumultuous period in our country's history. Dividing the conflict into "traitors" and "heroes" seems like a completely pointless exercise.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2020 12:55pm)

Was Lee arrested for treason? It seems really odd to assign him a label when the Federal government he fought against declined to do so.

Quote (bogie160 @ Jun 11 2020 02:55pm)

Was Lee arrested for treason? It seems really odd to assign him a label when the Federal government he fought against declined to do so.