tmw you are so triggered that you can't distinguish between someone's genuinely held beliefs, and them paraphrasing another person...

thats right, ignore dead and severly injured people

i might be triggered, but at least i dont ignore facts

we all know your priorities now
sickening

by the way, you do realise how shady your "statistics" are
the president of brandenburg, dietmar woidke, has openly admitted that they would count unknown crime towards "xenophobe/right wing extremist" attacks if not proven otherwise

go look it up doggy, but i know you are not interested

850 injuries

I already proved this was bullshit in the other thread.

Give this a read:



https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507104937_874487.html

Even the catalan health department, controlled by the separatist government, admitted there were only 4 injured. Obviously the separatist politicians can lie and spread their propaganda about hundreds of injured all they want, but at the end of the day the documents issued in hospitals can't lie. Only 4 received medical attention in hospitals, and two of them were sent home after a few hours. And out of the remaining two, one of them suffered a heart attack (not really a direct injury either). There was literally just one seriously injured guy due to the police intervention... the one who almost lost his eye to a rubber ball shot.

I mean, I challenge you to find me one, JUST ONE, picture of catalan politicians "visiting the injured". Because you'd think they'd be quick to show up, support them and take pictures with them... but they didn't... because there were no real injured, aside from a few bruises and the 4 mentioned cases in the hospitals.

Yes, it's not nice to see people being pushed around, like the videos show, but these civilians were after all trying to stop the police from doing their job. It doesn't matter if the protest is peaceful (which is still questionable, as we don't know exactly what the buildup to the videos was like), if it's an illegal protest then it can not be justified.

This isn't North Korea, there is freedom of speech. If they wanted to hold a non-binding referendum, they could just hold one sponsored with the money of separatist organizations in John Doe's house (there have in fact been such "referenda" in small towns in the past)... not spending public money on illegal activities or fraudulently taking the personal information of millions of catalans to create a census... especially when "making lists" of people who aren't going to vote is being encouraged by separatist organizations, as well as encouraging to post pics of yourself voting so everyone can see "where you stand".

The Supreme Court really had no option but to stop this based on the law and constitution, and the police did just did their job. Obviously there were ugly scenes I didn't like... but I don't see how they can be prevented when you have a group of people that, peacefully or not, refuse to cooperate with the police and follow the Supreme Court's orders. If we can prove that there were instances where the use of force wasn't justified, and that peaceful and cooperating civilians were hurt for no reason, then I'm all in for punishing the police agents that were involved in those cases.

So far not a single separatist organization has sued policemen. They've complained much to the press, congress and twitter, but they've started no legal actions... what does that tell you? There simply is no substantial proof. Some videos and pictures that look awful when seen out of context, but that's it. Valuable stuff for journalists to sell papers, but nothing of value for lawyers to use as case winning evidence in court.

This post was edited by zarkadon on Mar 27 2018 06:35am

'London is still the highest and improved by 15 points b b..but Frankfurt is gonna get better at some point even though it went down by 9 points1!!!1!'

ah i see, so it isn't really violence if you don't end up in the hospital for a lengthy time...
it's funny how comfortable some people are with obvious police brutality, as long as it's against people they disagree with. i guess this political tribalism is even more widespread than i anticipated.

political arrests based on blown up bogus charges? sure, go ahead. charging police for kicking people sitting on the ground, beating peaceful protesters with batons, shooting into crowds, shoving them down stairs, dragging women by their hair, and attacking elderly? nah, their injuries were too minor and they deserved it because the supreme court wanted to set an example (based on the centralist interpretation of the constitution catalonia was basically blackmailed to agree to eight decades ago) and prevent a region from determining their own future.
what a refreshingly healthy democracy you have. no, ofc spain is not north korea, but this is still a very concerning development - if you're in favour of democracy that is...

very unfortunate how even somewhat reasonable people lose any sense of perspective, democratic and even basic human values when the team mentality kicks in...

Fine, keep sticking to subjective opinions (like the interpretation of what is violence and injuries, which is something anyone can argue about and defend from different points of view) and ignore the objective facts (like why the separatists have neither visited the injured or taken legal actions against the police, which is undeniable, no matter where you stand).

And you keep repeating that Catalonia was forced to accept the constitution, which is complete bogus:
-First of all, the constitution referendum was held in 1978 (we will celebrate it's 40th anniversary in december ), over a year after free elections... not "eight decades ago", which would be during Franco's rule.
-Second of all, the Constitution was elaborated by 7 democratic politicians, from different parties... and one of them, Miquel Roca, was from Puigdemont's catalan nationalist party. And all articles had to be unanimously approved.
-Thirdly, Catalonia was the region where the constitution got the 2nd most support (95%). Meanwhile in the castilian regions, like Extremadura, Cantabria, La Rioja, Madrid, Castilla-LaMancha and Castilla-Leon... there was much less support. Why? because it was precisely the spansh nationalist right wing that called for a boycott against a consitution that advocated for "far too much for decentralization" and was "too appeasing" to regional nationalisms.
-And lastly, the basque regions of Euskadi and Navarre supported the constitution far less than Catalonia ("only" around 75%), because ETA's political branch opposed, since they considered it wasn't enough to please their separatist goals. If the catalans thought the constitution wasn't good enough for them, they should have showed less support, like the basques did. Nobody forced them to vote anything.

We will see about bogus blownup charges when the trial is done. I don't see what interpretation you can give to the law in order to not see sedition when you are disobeying the Supreme Court's orders, or not see embezzlement when you are spending the public budget on illegal activities, but then again I'm not a law expert (and afaik, neither are you). We will have to see what will happen now.

e: and what are you basing yourself on in order to accuse me of only supporting these kind of police actions when they are against people I disagree with? I'm against all illegal protests in free democratic countries, bound to a rule of law, that offer legal and easily available means to peacefully protest, no matter the ideology behind them.

This post was edited by zarkadon on Mar 27 2018 08:07am

my bad, you're right it was four decades not eight, but we've already been over the lazy "well their parents were in support of it 40 years ago, so the completely ridiculous and unrealistic path to decide their own future is perfectly fine" talking point.
also, the ridiculous 'opinion' that kicking people sitting on the ground, beating peaceful protesters with batons, shooting into crowds, shoving them down stairs, dragging women by their hair, and attacking elderly is somehow not violence because it didn't result in lengthy hospital visits and photo ops for catalan politicians doesn't exactly show 'objectivity'. again, the videos speak for themselves - even if you cowardly hide behind the flawed context talking point, as if there was a possibility that they were all doctored or that they did something to actually justify those fascist methods...

lastly by the kind of 'logic' you're applying here, the charges ofc will not have been overblown because OBVIOUSLY the centralist judges will make examples of the political prisoners - but that's about as good of a "proof" as the courts sentencing putin's opponents all the time...

guess there is no reasoning with political tribalism and supporters of state sanctioned violence against peaceful civilians - should really have been obvious to begin with...

edit based on yours: please stop pretending that the supreme court's decision to physically prevent a vote (that could just have been declared illegitimate, like all the other times, avoiding the decline into authoritarian methods, including political arrests and police brutality against civilians) and the long history of oppressing any attempts to have a realistic path to self-determination did not exist.

This post was edited by fender on Mar 27 2018 08:38am

You've said pretty much the same thing 5 or 6 times now heinrich. Move on. People aren't going to look away while others break the law just because of your oversensitivity to a bit of heavy-handedness.

more closet fascists chiming in. it's so funny how consistently the same people who justify violence against peaceful civilians, claiming they deserved to be physically attacked for trying to self-determine, are the ones who act like the potential break of law in a different case (that happens to align with their interests) doesn't even have to be taken seriously.

i wonder how bad you'd cry if police arrested brexit leaders for treason and physically assaulted leave supporters because a remain friendly court decided it was time for a good old fascist crackdown...

Your feelings don't match my feelings. Evil reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Your example is exactly why you're just rambling at this point. It's not just the whim of some court heinrich, it's the constitution which governs ALL of Spain.