I'll accept this as your acknowledgment of defeat.

I'm not American, and I don't care about Republicans or Democrats.

The fact that people choosing not to be vaccinated for highly contagious and preventable diseases for no good reason (your freedom in this context means nothing, society is bigger than you) is unnecessary and potentially dangerous.

The facts of the matter:
1) These diseases are highly contagious and have caused much illness and death in the past.
2) These diseases were rampant amongst the population and there were outbreaks regularly.
3) These only stopped when a vaccine was invented and began to be used widespread.
4) Non-vaccinated individuals pose a threat to the herd immunity, and make recurrences possible.

Are you twelve?

Seriously, man.

So your country doesn't need mandatory because population is smarter than Americans who needs be forced instead of being educated. Now think why there is a anti-vax movement in States and not in your country...

This post was edited by 2sexy4u on Apr 29 2015 07:09am

They are a slew of other preventative steps that would save FAR more lives than mandatory vaccinations for the few holdouts, some of which I mentioned earlier in this thread.
Somehow I doubt you would support things like government mandated handwashing enforcement for all citizens.


Feel free to consider it whatever you like. Perhaps it can also serve as a magical unicorn. Even tho it clearly isn't.


Good for you. Scaly does.


Most of the things we do are unnecessary and potentially dangerous.
Should we ban everything dangerous and force everyone to comply with our health whims to achieve a Utopian state of "safety"? Of course not.


Emphasis on past. They arent today, without bans on exemptions or forcing every person to take them.



They was a very large trend away from death from these illnesses before the rollout of various vaccines.
Allowing people to opt out does NOT mean we are going to go back to the heyday of widespread disease.
You are using the past seriousness of an illness before vaccines were introduced to fear monger for mandatory vaccinations for all when its not required to maintain a very very very low rate of incidence and death.

Example:




But not a statistically significant threat to society when its only a small minority and has caused 0 deaths in the past decade here.
Its quite possible to stress its importance and for people to take vaccines through voluntary means to keep herd immunity. Your own country is a fine example Josef.


No. but what very mature point you have there.

It is in fact quite possible to coexist without giving up my liberty to decide for myself whether to take a vaccine in lieu of your oppressive forced vaccinations for all.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Apr 29 2015 07:17am

Didn't read the whole thread. But I'd support additional measures to prevent disease amongst the population in addition of vaccination.

It remains a fact of history that vaccination has reduced these diseases into virtual non-existence in the West. There is simply no denying that.


Seems like my country doesn't need a Joseph to stop people being complete idiots.

What reason do you have to jeopardize herd immunity in any capacity? Because you don't like the government promoting and if necessary enforcing something that is clearly and demonstrably in the public good?


And for your last bit, I meant in general. Living in a society does by definition infringe on individual liberty. And in this case, it means you get vaccinated for polio, measles and a couple of other things.

No.

No I don't. i think republicans are only marginally more irrelevant than democrats and that the whole American political system is a sham based off of sensationalism and tabloid grade theatrics and drama instead of discussion of the real issues.

Sure, and no one here is for abolishing vaccines, nor is it the only reductive factor in the severity and incidence of disease.



I value liberty, voluntarism and peace more than an infinitesimally smaller chance that someone might get sick despite a barrage of propaganda and fear mongering that you are spewing.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Apr 29 2015 07:37am

You keep saying fearmongering. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I'm stating facts.

Vaccinations are the greatest contributor to the decline or extinction of some very serious and contagious diseases.
Being vaccinated poses no harm to you (unless you have some immuno-deficiency or an allergic reaction to one of the components of the vaccine).
Not being vaccinated compromises herd immunity. It doesn't matter what level you reduce it to, the fact remains that non-vaccinated/non-immune individuals that can freely travel in society compromise herd immunity.

Why would you allow cases of preventable diseases to go up without any benefit at all? Even if they are minor and non-lethal, why would you support the chance of preventable contagious diseases recurring in the population?

I never said we would face an measles pandemic or massive loss of life if some individuals were to opt out. I'm saying cases of that disease would go up, possibly mounting to a local outbreak. Which is demonstrably true, completely unnecessary and 100% preventable.

On the other hand, you seem to be equating a public health service to state violence and an infringement on personal liberty. Seems like you're the one spreading fear of big gubment.

This post was edited by hATemOnkEy on Apr 29 2015 07:53am

You are bringing up the past severity of illnesses and downplaying/ignoring other mitigating factors to overestimate and overplay the perceived dangers of allowing a few people to opt out in order to advocate forced mandatory vaccinations.
Thats fear mongering.



This is false. Vaccines have side effects, even if you deem they are worth it, and even if some vaccines have few serious side effects.

There is also a risk of danger going to get a vaccine. You could get sick from people you meet or die in a car crash.
Radical pro-liberty persons like yourself haven't banned all cars for safety precautions yet or banned all sick persons from leaving their houses. How dare you put me at risk.

You or me personally valuing certain vaccines and thinking they are the best course of action does not mean everyone else thinks so, nor does it mean that force mandating them for everyone is proper.
I believe healthcare decisions are best left to individuals and their doctors.


Not to any statistically significant degree.



You personally despising individual liberty and valuing it very low does not mean there is "no benefit" to not mandating something.
You are eager to initiate violence and support government mandates whereas I am more prone to using education and persuasion.
We have different values and this is an irreconcilable difference of opinion.

This post was edited by cambovenzi on Apr 29 2015 08:10am

I'm done.

Let me know when you can get me an argument that does not call me a hater of liberty or would initiate violence or pave the way to genocide, apparantly. Also include why a greater risk of reduced herd immunity is preferable than being able to opt out for anything other than medical reasons. 'Mah freedomz' is not an argument, sorry.

Again:

1) It is demonstrably true that vaccines are the greatest and most efficient way to eradicate infectious disease.
2) It is demonstrably true that vaccines have caused the great decline in these diseases in much of the world.
3) The change of having adverse effects of a vaccine is small, and I agree that more research and modeling is necessary to prevent this. Persons with a known condition that would prevent them to have that vaccine already have exemptions and are monitored by their doctors/healthcare providers.
4) Education and promotion have caused in my country to very high numbers of vaccination and thus low numbers of outbreaks of these diseases. Apparantly some countries are not catching on and are allowing individuals to cite religious or political reason to not get themselves or their children vaccinated. Which is downright harmful.

This post was edited by hATemOnkEy on Apr 29 2015 08:24am