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May 22 2020 03:30pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 04:21pm)
what actions did the cameraman take that made him culpable for a violent felony that would knowingly pose a deadly risk?


He chased... If he actually did something that helped them kill Arbery that will come out in court, but he wasnt an idle observer

If he had stayed stationary then you are right it would be a ridiculous charge, but he didn't

This post was edited by Thor123422 on May 22 2020 03:31pm
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May 22 2020 03:43pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 05:21pm)
what actions did the cameraman take that made him culpable for a violent felony that would knowingly pose a deadly risk?


If he in anyway assisted in the attempt of false imprisonment that is illegal :(

This post was edited by Skinned on May 22 2020 03:43pm
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May 22 2020 03:57pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ May 22 2020 04:30pm)
He chased... If he actually did something that helped them kill Arbery that will come out in court, but he wasnt an idle observer

If he had stayed stationary then you are right it would be a ridiculous charge, but he didn't


Is following someone, that participation alone removed from other circumstances and without knowing what's going on, now a life-or-death felony?

Quote (Skinned @ May 22 2020 04:43pm)
If he in anyway assisted in the attempt of false imprisonment that is illegal :(


What's the assistance here? If the McMichaels stopped by a random passerby and rolled down a window and asked "Did you see a guy running past", and they said "yea, that way", would that person be charged with murder for giving directions?
Actus reas and mens reas are supposed to be real concepts with real meanings.
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May 22 2020 04:42pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 04:57pm)
Is following someone, that participation alone removed from other circumstances and without knowing what's going on, now a life-or-death felony?


You don't get to remove other circumstances from consideration.

If I see two guys with guns chasing down another guy, I know that some shit is probably gonna go down. If my involvement makes it such that the other guy gets killed when he otherwise wouldn't have, I'd be partially responsible.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on May 22 2020 04:45pm
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May 22 2020 04:46pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ May 22 2020 05:42pm)
You don't get to remove other circumstances from consideration.


but the point is that the circumstances don't support it, and the underlying action removed from those circumstances isn't inherently wrong at all. So where does the culpability come from?
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May 22 2020 04:49pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 05:46pm)
but the point is that the circumstances don't support it, and the underlying action removed from those circumstances isn't inherently wrong at all. So where does the culpability come from?


Somebody died, he was chasing at the same time as the people who killed the other person.

That's more than enough to make a charge legitimate, even if he gets dropped after further examination of the facts.

Charges are not a high bar. He will seek legal representation and fight it, as he should, and if the facts that come out are black and white in his favor, then the charges will be dropped well before a trial.

This isn't some ridiculous oddity dude.

This post was edited by Thor123422 on May 22 2020 04:50pm
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May 22 2020 05:40pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 05:57pm)
Is following someone, that participation alone removed from other circumstances and without knowing what's going on, now a life-or-death felony?



What's the assistance here? If the McMichaels stopped by a random passerby and rolled down a window and asked "Did you see a guy running past", and they said "yea, that way", would that person be charged with murder for giving directions?
Actus reas and mens reas are supposed to be real concepts with real meanings.


He didn't seem particularly fearful considering a murder was GDFR.
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May 22 2020 10:05pm
Quote (Goomshill @ 22 May 2020 14:36)
He wasn't "involved" with the people, but he's charged anyway
The prosecutors aren't ignorant of the facts of the case, they're taking what was already a tortured murder charge on the two McMichaels and making the most herculean stretch of all time that the guy committed felony murder by filming it

their legal argument- and I feel this should come with a disclaimer like that south park episode where it says 'this is what scientologists really believe'- is that because he picked up his phone and started filming from his truck when he saw arbery chased by the mcmichaels so that he could figure out what was going on and help, the fact that he pursued both the mcmichaels and arberys in the chase then makes him an unwitting accomplice to the citizen's arrest, and because they're charging the citizen's arrest as felony aggravated assault by arguing it had no legal cause, that makes him liable for felony murder.

which makes absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever under any reasonable reading of the felony murder rule

to commit felony murder, you have to knowingly commit a felony that a reasonable person could anticipate could create a fatal risk, and you then assume criminal liability for the risk- you can be responsible for deaths even if you didn't try to kill anyone, as long as your actions were both felonious and created the risk. In order for the armed citizen's arrest to be treated as a felony aggravated assault, the prosecutors have to say the mcmichaels had no legal justification from immediate knowledge of arbery committing a felony that would allow them to pursue him. So in order to charge the guy who just filmed it, they'd have to say that by joining in the pursuit without knowing what was even going on, by the mere act of driving his truck after Arbery, he became a participant in the citizen's arrest, which becomes a felony under their theory only because of a lack of legal justification he couldn't possibly know at the time, which somehow he was supposed to know posed a life and death risk, and just him driving after Arbery was an act responsible for Arbery's death.

this is the kind of shit that would make Beria blush.


I agree, I don't fully understand how the cameraman could be charged with murder here. Unless he knew McMichaels planned to kill Arbery and was someone in on it, which I sincerely doubt. Perhaps an accessory to murder? I'm not sure, I am not a lawyer.

Responding to previous statements and opinions you have expressed in this thread, though, I do not see a strong case for self-defense for McMichaels here. McMichaels appeared to be chasing Arbery (and not the other way around) and placed himself in Arbery's path, directly initiating contact and confrontation.
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May 22 2020 10:57pm
Quote (Goomshill @ May 22 2020 06:46pm)
but the point is that the circumstances don't support it, and the underlying action removed from those circumstances isn't inherently wrong at all. So where does the culpability come from?


From muh slavery
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Jun 4 2020 12:32pm
William Bryan told investigators he heard Travis McMichael use a racial epithet after fatally shooting Ahmaud Arbery in Glynn County, a Georgia Bureau of Investigation agent testified Thursday during preliminary hearings.

Bryan told police McMichael said "f***ing n***er" after three blasts from McMichael's shotgun left Arbery dead in February the streets of the Satilla Shores neighborhood, Assistant Special Agent in Charge Richard Dial said. Body camera footage also showed a Confederate flag sticker on the toolbox of McMichael's truck, Dial said.


The allegations came as Dial outlined the events that led to Arbery's death and told the court that before Arbery was shot, the three men charged in his murder engaged in an elaborate chase, hitting the 25-year-old jogger with a truck as he repeatedly tried to avoid them.
Asked if he believed Travis McMichael could've been acting in self-defense, Dial said the opposite was true.
"I believe Mr. Arbery was being pursued, and he ran till he couldn't run anymore, and it was turn his back to a man with a shotgun or fight with his bare hands against the man with the shotgun. He chose to fight. ... I believe Mr. Arbery's decision was to just try to get away, and when he felt like he could not escape he chose to fight."

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