Well, you've accepted defeat I guess on the logic of free will... . you are now just attacking the framework of the debate itself rather than engaging with my logic.
let's pretend "Christians say god is timeless, the bible doesnt say that at all" is true (it isn't) why are we operating under sola scriptura?
"Creation had a beginning and lastet 7 days. Those are attributes of time."
and? how does that make God (who created the creation) not eternal? how does the creation having a beginning make God (who transcends creation which includes the universe) not eternal?
"Which would totally dismantle the discussion because it would mean that god knew about our decision BEFORE he created us and not simultanously which would make him responsable for it no matter what."
how does this follow from anything you just said? this is a complete non-sequitur. again, I have proven that certainly knowing something doesn't mean necessarily caused.
"Also the bible says that god himself creates every human being which also contradicts your view, which basically lets us create our children by our will and not his."
You have literally no understanding what this means. It would be better if you used specific verses to express what the bible says.
"If he has a plan of every individual being, then their existence is his decision and not ours."
this does not follow and again you are showing a lacking of understanding of theology
the very concept of sin is based on the idea that humans have the free will to choose between God's plan and their own desires. if God's plan was an absolute, deterministic script that we could not contradict, then sin would be impossible and the concept of moral responsibility would be meaningless.
"Christian framework is crap. Thats why 10 people come to 10 conclusions."
this is a fallacy.
10 people look at 5+5 and 9 people answer "15" and 1 answers "10" does that mean "math is crap"? No.
Okay let me start off with saying that this discussion is not and never was about victory or defeat for me. I am not wishing that free will doesnt exist, I am not even wishing or hoping to be right on that.
It is just that I dont think that a working argument in favor of free will can be made and I still think that is the case.
I am not just randomly attacking the christian framework now because I dont know what to say anymore, I just picked the topic up from you since you said this discussion in the context of god has to stay inside of the christian framework. So I talk about it.
I also wanna say that (probably obvious to you anyways) english is not my first language, which might lead to misunderstanding of what I try to say. I didnt wanna imply that god is not eternal, I wanted to imply that he is not atemporal or in other words that he also has to follow a straight timeline. At least creation seems to suggest this as it took him an amount of time to create.
My argument here is that he indeed did know all things BEFORE they happen. An atemporal god for whom everything happens at once might be able to know things without causing it. But if god has to follow a timeline, then his eternal knowledge was there before he even started creating. So in that sense, he knew what happens before (literally before) any human being ever existed, so he knew it before anyone did anything, which means its clearly all his creation. Because your argument of alethic truth had no foundation anymore.
You said "I have proven that certainly knowing something doesn't mean necessarily caused".
You didnt have to prove that, I knew that before.
You could also aquire knowledge from someone or from experience without causing it. Thats not new. You probably think that you proved that you can know things without causing AND without experiencing or learning about them. But you have not.
If God already infallibly knows what I will do tomorrow and created the world in such a way that this outcome will inevitably occur, then he is not merely a passive observer, he is causally responsible for the conditions that make my choice certain. Calling this alethic truth doesnt change the fact that the future is fixed, nor does it remove gods role in making it fixed. If my choice cannot in reality be otherwise without making gods knowledge wrong, then my freedom is only theoretical, and god shares responsibility for every outcome.
And to my other...lets call it complaint about the christian framework: Please dont just say I dont understand the scripture, tell me what I dont understand here.
So let me sum up what I mean again, and I try to look up the bible verses I refer to and include them:
If human beings truly have free will, then it should logically follow that we, and not God, determine which individual people come into existence. Our choices about relationships, reproduction, and timing would be the decisive cause of who is born. But if God already knows with absolute certainty every person who will ever exist, and created the world in such a way that these exact people will inevitably exist, then he is not a passive observe, he has causally set the stage for their existence. That means God shares responsibility for every persons life and every consequence of their actions. Calling this merely foreknowledge doesnt remove the fact that the entire future, including every human birth, is fixed before we act.
The Bible itself presents God as actively forming individuals before birth, not merely foreknowing them:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart. (Jeremiah 1:5)
For you created my inmost being, you knit me together in my mothers womb. (Psalm 139:13)
The Lord gives both death and life, he brings down to the grave and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6)
If these verses are taken at face value, God is not only aware of who will exist, he is directly involved in bringing them into being. In that case, claiming humans freely determine who exists becomes inconsistent with the biblical picture, and god cannot avoid causal responsibility for who is born and what they do.
Also if God chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and forms us before we are born (Jeremiah 1:5), then claiming he only acts "after" we cause a pregnancy would just be wordplay, he is causally responsible for who exists, and human freedom to determine existence seems to be an illusion. Thats my point.
The concept of sin might be a lie, because of all I just stated. Its not just true because it says its true. If all would be true because scripture says its true, then the bible would prove the bible and case closed. Kinda cheap, right?
If 10 people look at 5 + 5, and 9 of them say 15, then we can prove without a shadow of a doubt that those 9 are wrong.
This post was edited by Saurod on Aug 14 2025 03:39am