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Aug 25 2021 11:55pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 24 2021 12:20pm)
By definition, it denies individuals the full reward of their merit. That is what void means by eliminating "outliers".


No it isn't lol. You're doing that thing where you take a stupid statement and try to back-fill something you see as intelligent to save face.

If a company is employee-owned and can provide a million dollars per employee, that's socialism. It has absolutely nothing to do with eliminating outliers, it actually guarantees outliers because it's still market based. Just makes it more difficult to have outliers to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars because compensation is determined by all the employees.
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Aug 26 2021 08:15am
https://mobile.twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1430888635801370624

JUST IN - Large explosion at Abbey gate at the #Kabul airport.
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1.4K

Disclose.tv
@disclosetv
·
28m
Pentagon confirms the explosion at #Kabul airport.
Quote Tweet

John Kirby
@PentagonPresSec
· 30m
We can confirm an explosion outside Kabul airport. Casualties are unclear at this time. We will provide additional details when we can.

:(
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Aug 26 2021 08:20am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Aug 26 2021 12:55am)
No it isn't lol. You're doing that thing where you take a stupid statement and try to back-fill something you see as intelligent to save face.

If a company is employee-owned and can provide a million dollars per employee, that's socialism. It has absolutely nothing to do with eliminating outliers, it actually guarantees outliers because it's still market based. Just makes it more difficult to have outliers to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars because compensation is determined by all the employees.


hack capitalists love the GDP per capital calculation, because a billionaire with more money than 1,000 workers who all have 1,000$ in their savings account still calculates out as a productive society.

"if you tax this way our GDP per capita will go down" is a shady way of trying to make it seem like poor people will have less money.
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Aug 26 2021 08:37am
Quote (excellence @ Aug 26 2021 04:15pm)
https://mobile.twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1430888635801370624

JUST IN - Large explosion at Abbey gate at the #Kabul airport.
161
1K
1.4K

Disclose.tv
@disclosetv
·
28m
Pentagon confirms the explosion at #Kabul airport.
Quote Tweet

John Kirby
@PentagonPresSec
· 30m
We can confirm an explosion outside Kabul airport. Casualties are unclear at this time. We will provide additional details when we can.

:(


there were warnings a few hours ago, not a suprise

i hope the allied soldiers are alright
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Aug 26 2021 08:39am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Aug 26 2021 01:55am)
No it isn't lol. You're doing that thing where you take a stupid statement and try to back-fill something you see as intelligent to save face.

If a company is employee-owned and can provide a million dollars per employee, that's socialism. It has absolutely nothing to do with eliminating outliers, it actually guarantees outliers because it's still market based. Just makes it more difficult to have outliers to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars because compensation is determined by all the employees.


I don't really care whether void says something smart or dumb, I'm just explaining what he meant. This is an age-old criticism that has been around ever since Marx popularized "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

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Aug 26 2021 08:41am
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 26 2021 09:39am)
I don't really care whether void says something smart or dumb, I'm just explaining what he meant. This is an age-old criticism that has been around ever since Marx popularized "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".


If he meant that he can explain it himself.

And even if it was, it's still a stupid argument, because capitalism is fundamentally built on denying non-owners their full reward.
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Aug 26 2021 08:58am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Aug 26 2021 10:41am)
If he meant that he can explain it himself.

And even if it was, it's still a stupid argument, because capitalism is fundamentally built on denying non-owners their full reward.


Capitalism's definition of "full reward" is the price that individuals can negotiate for their labor in a free market. Markets are never absolutely free, and there are a lot of other complex considerations going on, but in practice we see that the price of labor does rise and fall in line with supply and demand.

Socialists argue that laborers are entitled to more than the fair market value of their labor, for reasons which they never manage to adequately explain. Salaried employment is a risk free endeavor. You are entitled by law to the wage agreed to by your employer. Your employer is not entitled to those same protections, and takes on all of the capital risk associated with running the business. Just as you are paid for your time, your employer must be compensated for the risk and capital they've allocated towards the business.
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Aug 26 2021 09:00am
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 26 2021 09:58am)
Capitalism's definition of "full reward" is the price that individuals can negotiate for their labor in a free market. Markets are never absolutely free, and there are a lot of other complex considerations going on, but in practice we see that the price of labor does rise and fall in line with supply and demand.

Socialists argue that laborers are entitled to more than the fair market value of their labor, for reasons which they never manage to adequately explain. Salaried employment is a risk free endeavor. You are entitled by law to the wage agreed to by your employer. Your employer is not entitled to those same protections, and takes on all of the capital risk associated with running the business. Just as you are paid for your time, your employer must be compensated for the risk and capital they've allocated towards the business.


If supply is taken into account then by definition you cannot be given the full value of what you provide to the company, since there is wage depression from labor competition. Additionally, you cannot be paid the full amount you add to the business or there would be net zero profit left over for the owner.

You are defining "full reward" in the capitalist sense then using that definition as a bludgeon. I could just as easily define "full reward" as the value added to the company by the role that is filled compared to if the role didn't exist and use that as a bludgeon right back, because all you did was make a semantic argument.

This post was edited by NetflixAdaptationWidow on Aug 26 2021 09:02am
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Aug 26 2021 09:09am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Aug 26 2021 11:00am)
If supply is taken into account then by definition you cannot be given the full value of what you provide to the company, since there is wage depression from labor competition. Additionally, you cannot be paid the full amount you add to the business or there would be net zero profit left over for the owner.

You are defining "full reward" in the capitalist sense then using that definition as a bludgeon. I could just as easily define "full reward" as the value added to the company by the role that is filled compared to if the role didn't exist and use that as a bludgeon right back, because all you did was make a semantic argument.


You will never be paid for the "value" your labor creates, as some of that value is owed to the capitalist for providing the capital and assuming the risk.

The capitalist definition of reward is intuitive, you negotiate a fair price with someone for labor performed. The socialist definition is not intuitive, because it's not clear at all what benefit the capitalist is receiving for assuming risk and providing the capital.
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Aug 26 2021 11:13am
Quote (bogie160 @ Aug 26 2021 08:09am)
You will never be paid for the "value" your labor creates, as some of that value is owed to the capitalist for providing the capital and assuming the risk.

The capitalist definition of reward is intuitive, you negotiate a fair price with someone for labor performed. The socialist definition is not intuitive, because it's not clear at all what benefit the capitalist is receiving for assuming risk and providing the capital.


How people can still have these exact same debates for over a decade is beyond me. I was so interested in economics that I got a degree in it and I still can't believe the topic is so heavily discussed to death. The idea of surplus labor and division of revenues is inherent in all discussions of partnered economic activity. I don't even want to discuss the idea of "denying non-owners their full reward", since labor is merely a factor in production but people have spent centuries arguing these same points to death. The conversation leads nowhere.

In any case, I'm not surprised at how humiliated the American military is with the withdraw from Afghanistan. It's an absolute joke, the military, the intel agencies, the politicians. Either they are so incompetent that they couldn't stage an orderly exit, or they're intentionally allowing it to happen this poorly in an attempt to convince idiots that forever wars are justifiable.

On a side note, I don't see any reason to invite former Afghan allies to reside in the United States or any allied nation. They were compensated for assisting US forces during the occupation. Effective vetting seems extremely unreliable given the volume, not to mention these Afghan allies are the ones who simply rolled over when the Taliban made their march. Call me callous, but I don't see why it's necessary to reward people who threw down their arms and surrendered their own nation over to extremists.


This post was edited by PlasmaSnake101 on Aug 26 2021 11:13am
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