Uh...wat? I've linked you studies on people who gave anonymous and semi-anonymous responses regarding their love lives. They report how happy they are and how long they've been in open marriages. You can sit there and claim how they lied to the researchers, but at this point it's your "guarantee" against thousands of people and dozens of studies into the effects of non-monogamous relationships.



That still doesn't answer for polygamy in the bible. And you're also operating under the premise of what is and isn't moral according to your standards. Lying and cheating is immoral--yes. But practicing an open relationship when your partner is completely okay with it, even embracing it and expecting you to have other relationships, isn't necessarily immoral. We as a society tend to frown on polygamy because it's not something most people could deal with. We also tend to view marriage as an intimate relationship, yet it was mainly a legal relationship for much of human history.

And I'm sure as shit not taking Australia's government for the end-all-be-all as the authority on marriage. There were prohibitions on interracial marriage as late as 1959. Just because something is a law doesn't make it moral. Interracial marriage is the most obvious parallel to non-monogamous, non-cisgendered marriages, but we could also go into how governments have used laws to practice slavery and genocide.



Terrible analogy because you're equating catching someone in the act with finding out about it afterwards. If you walk in on your friend having sex with someone their spouse isn't okay with them having sex with, that's a more applicable example. However, it's more like you find out your friend stole some money after they committed the crime. You can tell them to return it. You can turn them into the police. But you shouldn't make what happened about you, which is the point you seem to be missing. You were not the one they stole from. As their friend, you can still do the right thing and not condone their behavior. Yet, that doesn't mean you get to stand on your high horse for the rest of your life, calling people sinners and telling them they will burn in hell and be tortured.



Just because there are people who judge others doesn't make them correct, or even you correct. You still haven't established why consenting adults practicing polygamy is wrong or why homosexuality is wrong. Your argument comes down to "Jesus said so."

Considering Jesus was a virgin who advocated men should gouge out their eyes and cut off their arms for even looking at a woman "the wrong way," I'm not exactly going to take his word on the moralities surrounding marriage.



Heterosexuality also destroys lives...remember how we were just talking about heterosexual couples practicing polygamy, which you "guarantee that the relationship is tearing itself apart from within?"

We don't really consider the bible the complete, total, and infallible authority you do because it can't seem to agree with itself and is completely open to interpretation. Some denominations of Christianity are completely okay with divorce, polygamy, and homosexuality, while others argue for the death penalty if caught doing any of those. Which interpretation or denomination do we follow? What about non-Abrahamic religions, which may be completely okay with polygamy and/or homosexuality? There are even religions which revere homosexuals, the most obvious being the Native American's idea of the "two-spirit" people.



Based on? We're not the ones who need a book to tell us not to kill people lol...




Noooooooooooooooooooooope. You're posts have been full of logical fallacies. This includes false equivalence, appeals to authority, appeals to emotion, etc. etc. None of your arguments have been logically sound--period. You haven't proven your premises are true, nor have you been able to provide conclusions that follow your premise.



...I'm also not really buying this. Anyone who's been around PaRD enough has probably seen you advocate for sterilizing theists, calling religion a disease, and wishing bodily harm/loss on believers. While you may not want to "ban religion," you sure as hell act like you'd be content with killing Christians.

Oh but my guarantee doesn't lie on weak foundations as I have The Bible to back up my words. At this point it is those thousands of people and dozens of studies, or it is God's word. I don't know about you but I know who I am more likely to believe.



My standards? No, it isn't my standards as it is God's standards. Truth be told nobody can even conform to their own ideal standards, how can one be able to conform to God's standards? You can't. You say that an open relationship may not be immoral if your partner approves of it but God does not approve of it. What that means is it is immoral. You cannot make any vows before God because he made his vows to us according to the Law of Marriage.



So who do you think the be-it-all-end-it-all of the authority on marriage is? I agree with you for once, God is the authority on marriage. Not mere humans who try to make exceptions or try to defend their sexual immorality.

Even so, the Marriage Act is in accordance to that of The Bible.



So you cannot adapt to the principle of what it implies in what the analogy is trying to say? If you learn to use roller skates, would you not be able to adapt to roller blades? You make it sound like you wouldn't be able to adapt. Pity. Oh and I do agree that you shouldn't make what happened all about you but the truth of the matter is, some people do. Some people will always try to make it all about themselves whether you like it or not. Or if somebody was found out about them doing such a crime, they now have a reputation that they need to fix. If your friend is a thief, he has that reputation. You may know of it and it will always be in the back of your mind.



So you are questioning Jesus' authority then? Let's see how that went with the Pharisees.

The Authority of Jesus Questioned
20 One day as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple courts and proclaiming the good news, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him. 2 “Tell us by what authority you are doing these things,” they said. “Who gave you this authority?”

3 He replied, “I will also ask you a question. Tell me: 4 John’s baptism—was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

5 They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Why didn’t you believe him?’ 6 But if we say, ‘Of human origin,’ all the people will stone us, because they are persuaded that John was a prophet.”

7 So they answered, “We don’t know where it was from.”

8 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”



Exodus 20:14 - You shall not commit adultery.

Matthew 5:17 - "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.

So now we're going on about contradictions once again. List them all here and they will be answered. Or better yet I'll give you a link that will answer them for you. http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/bible.htm



Then who commits murder? They obviously exist because people have been murdered and will continue to commit murder in the future. Define who "We are" is referring to.



Ahhh but that is where you are incorrect in your interpretations. I could very easily give you the perfect example where Sexual Immorality destroyed a whole life which included murder. Then you would discard it as being a fantasy. Your logic has been to try to defend Sexual Immorality because it 'isn't all that bad' or 'some people may still be happy in their relationships.'
I'm sure that some people would be happy if they stole something that they always wanted, then by your logic that would make it okay. "They are happy that they attained that item so therefore it is okay to steal." Why don't you just go ahead and say that hmmm?

No, you face a public trial and you are punished accordingly. Nobody "disappears " in the DPRK, when someone breaks the law, the government makes sure that every korean finds out about it, so that an example is set.

Spirituality and sexuality are not mutually exclusive. A good man can also be a prurient man. Puritanism is not the only way.

I love how christians come into these conversations and make these contradicting assertions about their religion and their religious morality and state them as if they are fact. It rlly demonstrates one of the fundamental ways in which indoctrination inflicts mental trauma that produces abnormal, illogical and irrational thought patterns.

This post was edited by Scaly on Feb 4 2015 02:06pm

But why should we use your version of religion for public policy? How do you reconcile with other religions? Or with others within your own religion who disagree with you? The research and studies have proven to be far more accurate given how high the divorce rate is.

You're still operating under several premises which you haven't proven true:

1) That God exists.
2) That he is the specific god, Yahweh/Allah/Jehovah.
3) This god's laws are actually in the books in both the New and Old Testament.
4) There are no other supernatural deities outside of this god.

The fourth one is probably the most important. Even if the Abrahamic god exists, does that mean gods in Hindiuism, indigenous religions, etc. do not exist?



I think marriage should be abolished and left up for individuals to decide for themselves. It's a religious, personal, and spiritual institution, not one that should be sanctioned by the state. Especially considering the state has shown itself repeatedly inept at sponsoring the institution.



You were comparing an act of violence to an act of passion. I cannot adapt to the principle of the analogy because it is senseless. Theft isn't comparable to murder, and adultery isn't comparable to theft.

You're completely dodging the argument you made. Again, we're back to what you said:



...which I am still questioning why people who commit adultery hurts your feelings and causes "damage" that "makes you view them as adulterers." It sounds like you're being judgmental over people's faults which aren't things you should concern yourself over because you're not the one who is actually hurt by them. You're getting your feelings hurt when you're not the one who was actually harmed. Nor is something like adultery something you would be a victim of from those people who committed adultery.

The difference between something like theft or homicide is that a thief or a murderer can do to you what they did to someone else. Thus, it's a concern of public safety. In the case of adultery, there has to be two people willing to commit adultery. Two thieves cannot consent to stealing from one another, because that would just be a trade or exchange. Two murderers cannot simultaneously murder one another, because that would just be mutual suicide.

From your posts, you're making it sound like there's these Casanova seducers out there luring people into cheating on their spouses that must be stopped at all costs.



You're using the bible to prove the bible, also known as "circular logic." Sorry, but this isn't a convincing argument. For example, you cite Matthew 5:17 as though it's a part of the proof polygamy is immoral, yet it's not even known whether or not Moses was monogamous.



Those of us who aren't a part of the Abrahamic religions still know that murder is bad. It's a universal belief across every culture, even those that haven't heard of the bible. Even without the bible, we know killing people has a negative impact on society. You're saying we don't have a moral compass because we don't follow the bible, which is complete nonsense. The truth of the matter is people have a better knowledge of morality than the Abrahamic god and his holy books. You even have a better understanding of right and wrong than your own religion does. You know slavery is wrong, along with genocide, human sacrifice, rape, mutilating people for crimes, etc., yet these are all presented as being moral in your holy book.



The word "logic" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means, so you resort to:

No, it is not my version at all. It is God's will. Other religions are man-made. You can see this with the Muslim Extremists who will only ever kill because they can. With other religions one thing is for sure for all of mankind - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

I have yet to meet somebody in my own religion who shares the view of defending sexual immorality.

1) All the evidence we need is in The Bible. If you do not listen to Moses or the Prophets you will not listen to somebody even if they came back from the dead.
Oh and tell me what it would take for you to believe in God short of him appearing before you?

2) Yahweh.

3) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." They still hold true before the Cross and after the Cross.

4) You mean other than the devil? I'm assuming you are. Remember when God said "You shall have no other gods before me." This is the worshiping of idols, worshiping created things instead of the creator. What is the greatest rival of God? It is money.

Oh and to take it another step further, let us go back to the Israelite's slavery back in Egypt. What did the Egyptians worship? They worshiped many gods, they had a god of the sun, of the river, of childbirth, of crops, etc. When Moses approached Pharaoh demanding that he let his people go, how does Pharaoh respond?

“Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the Lord, neither will I let Israel go.” This is what began the challenge to show whose God was more powerful. This brings about the 10 plagues.



Oh but I put above that: “The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.” I can give you an example of what happens if everybody makes up their own laws to suit their own individual needs.

“You are welcome at my house,” the old man said. “Let me supply whatever you need. Only don’t spend the night in the square.” So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink.

While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.”

The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. Everyone who saw it was saying to one another, “Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Just imagine! We must do something! So speak up!”

Then there is the story of King David who lusted after a married woman and had the husband killed in battle just to cover it all up. If you disagree with me here I can give you many, many more.



You just don't get it do you? Do you not see how the body becomes defiled? You would not want to touch a defiled body or have anything to do with a defiled body. That is how STD spreads. This is also what causes people to rape which is what most cases are all about anyway. Then there are the select few who have sex before marriage but with consent.
That is only to fulfill your own personal pleasures right? It makes it much less meaningful as well. After the marriage you have said your wedding vows to each other and you have made that commitment for life. Couples are much less likely to divorce if they wait till after marriage. For example, a 2010 study based on 2,035 married individuals by the American Psychological Association’s Journal of Family Psychology showed couples who wait experience happier marriages, The Globe and Mail reported.



So listen to God or listen to the serpent? Let's see how that went.

The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Also, all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. You tell me would a good and merciful God hide the very information we need to understand good and evil, heaven and hell, sin and redemption, and then hold us accountable for all eternity because we failed to act upon that information?



Then why is there still murder? Are you going to tell those Muslim Extremists so stop murdering and they will submit to your word? I would love to see that. There have been many murders for many reasons. Hate crimes, love triangles, random killings, self gain etc. They may know that it is immoral but they do not think of that do they? They are only thinking of self gain and how they could profit from such a thing. Now I'm not saying that you are a murderer or that you will but there are those that do. Besides whether you steal or whether you murder makes no difference in God's eyes. All sin is the same as the definition of sin is basically rejecting God. Telling God to get lost. Since God is an eternal being outside the scopes of time that has an eternal impact on him. That is why the punishment is just and eternal if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

Ahhh, but who are these people that have a better knowledge of morality you speak of? Are you standardizing people who do not need the Cross by those who have a clean record of no criminal history? Only those that have committed vile acts need Jesus? We've all done that and we all need Jesus. So can you give me a list of names of those people being considered moral who have done these horrible things? Oh and before you say King David, he was punishment for his Sexual Immorality as what he did displeased the Lord.



I can see you are still not correct in your assumptions. Every single point that I have ever put down has been sound and validated. There is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with what I have been typing or how I have been putting it down.

Every single one of yours and Scaly's points have all been rebutted and refuted. Try again please.

you indoctrinated fucks beats watching a comedy show any day