Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2022 08:05am)

I don't agree with your kind Eeyore

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 11 2022 08:07am)

Do you really think Russia has no self-interested reasons for curtailing NATO expansion, when removed from any greater designs for an empire? More to the point, opposing an empire.
I don't think its hard to see Russia's reasons for wanting to push back against western encroachment on his borders. Decades of NATO expanding eastward until it reached the borders of Russia proper. The most deeply intertwined country with Russian history, its breadbasket and host to much of the soviet remnant, seized in a coup d'etat by pro-western forces. And Russia has no reason to react forcefully? This is the kind of geopolitical game that's played out thousands of times throughout history, in kingdoms and empires and city-states. When all we do is demonize Putin and blame his megalomania, we're blinding ourselves to his motivations, hamstringing our ability to respond intelligently. Putin carefully planned out his response, he reinforced his economic position, eliminated Ukraine's pipeline transit leverage, and even appeased China's wish to smooth over the olympics. He's playing that game and knows the players and their motives, we're playing fifty two card pickup.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2022 09:26am)

If you think a nuclear power is gonna take this kind of BS you're wrong and it just shows how incredibly dumb you are.

Several waves of NATO expansion, Russia only voices their concern, heh, lets do another round. And then Ukraine plus Georgia, former Soviet republics right on their border and their sphere of influence ^^ ^^ ^^

Dumbest fucking policy you can conjure up FFS

Unless you like war that is

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2022 09:26am)

If you think a nuclear power is gonna take this kind of BS you're wrong and it just shows how incredibly dumb you are.

Several waves of NATO expansion, Russia only voices their concern, heh, lets do another round. And then Ukraine plus Georgia, former Soviet republics right on their border and their sphere of influence ^^ ^^ ^^

Dumbest fucking policy you can conjure up FFS

Unless you like war that is

Quote (bogie160 @ Mar 11 2022 03:54pm)

Poland and the Baltics asked to join NATO to protect themselves from their old imperial masters. Should we just give Russia West Germany while we're at it?

You're still interpreting this as a moral debate, it's not. International relations is amoral. There's no right or wrong between NATO expanding eastward and Russia opposing it. Two separate interests are playing themselves out. When we do ask the moral question, it should be geared towards "With whom are the Ukrainians better off?", and there's a clear answer there.

But whether that means we should defend Ukraine is secondary. It should come down to whether we think it's in our long-term national interests.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 11 2022 08:07am)

Do you really think Russia has no self-interested reasons for curtailing NATO expansion, when removed from any greater designs for an empire? More to the point, opposing an empire.
I don't think its hard to see Russia's reasons for wanting to push back against western encroachment on his borders. Decades of NATO expanding eastward until it reached the borders of Russia proper. The most deeply intertwined country with Russian history, its breadbasket and host to much of the soviet remnant, seized in a coup d'etat by pro-western forces. And Russia has no reason to react forcefully? This is the kind of geopolitical game that's played out thousands of times throughout history, in kingdoms and empires and city-states. When all we do is demonize Putin and blame his megalomania, we're blinding ourselves to his motivations, hamstringing our ability to respond intelligently. Putin carefully planned out his response, he reinforced his economic position, eliminated Ukraine's pipeline transit leverage, and even appeased China's wish to smooth over the olympics. He's playing that game and knows the players and their motives, we're playing fifty two card pickup.

Quote (Djunior @ Mar 11 2022 08:20am)

I suggest blind dumbass war mongers like you and Eeyore...

Quote (Mondain @ Mar 10 2022 08:04pm)

I thought this was a conspiracy nut theory to explain Russia's targeted bombing of said labs.

Anyone care to share info on this?

Quote (Santara @ Mar 11 2022 05:43pm)

LMAO, warmongers! Today, I learned that opposing Putin's aggression is "warmongering." Sorry Dimitriy, being supportive of self-defense is not warmongering.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 11 2022 03:34am)

There is no distinction, there is no line between "laboratory holding weaponizable dangerous pathogens" and "biological weapons research". That is how all biological weapons research is done in 2022. All chinese, american, european and russian bioweapons are researched in facilities that are frontfacing as secure pathogen research laboratories. If you have vials of anthrax, you have access to bioweapons. If we hide behind the fig leaf of "but its not for the explicit purposes of weaponization", then there are no bioweapons anywhere. Russia can still assassinate people with novichok and storm terrorist hostage takers after pumping in weaponized fentanyl, but bioweapons don't exist.

So here we've got the poorest country in Europe, wracked by civil strife and threat of foreign invasion and at a semi-permanent state of war for a decade, with piss all for medical research, and yet the US was funding security and research at facilities that happen to hold the most dangerous and weaponizable pathogens known to man. Its a bit like finding out the US had a plutonium enriching nuclear reactor set up in Somalia, paying for security and research at their domestic nuclear energy program for totally above-the-board peaceful purposes. And barely a day went by between the US propaganda machine pumping out countless stories of "Bioweapons in Ukraine is a complete hoax and lie by Russia" to "We need to secure Ukraine's bioweapons". And we're still moving that fast. Yesterday even after we admitted that the facilities had weaponizable pathogens, the US still contradicted the Russian claim that Ukraine was being told to destroy the evidence. Now again, just in the time of this back and forth posts, the WHO has come out and said that they had been advising Ukraine to destroy its bioweapons;
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-who-says-it-advised-ukraine-destroy-pathogens-health-labs-prevent-2022-03-11/
https://archive.ph/aTH96

Quote (Santara @ Mar 11 2022 10:43am)

Of course it's in Putin's interest to curb NATO expansion, because having freer countries on his border is a direct threat to his stability as dictator. That doesn't mean it's in Russia's interest.
First and foremost, NATO is a defensive alliance. Nothing in the NATO charter obligates the signatories to participate in a war of aggression, therefore NATO expansion is really just a hedge against Russian aggression, and if Pootey-poot has a problem with that, he can fuck straight off.

Quote (Goomshill @ Mar 11 2022 12:10pm)

Every military these days is defensive, until its not. How many ministries of defense / departments of defense are sending weapons to a foreign warzone? How many countries has NATO invaded and bombed in the past 30 years? A 'defensive alliance' dropped bombs in Bosnia, Serbia and Kosovo. And again in Afghanistan. Partially in Iraq, but fully again in Libya. We can say some were righteous causes, some were not, but either way most military conflicts fought by NATO troops have been aggressive, I mean what's been their defensive actions, stopping Somali piracy? Russia is directly threatened by NATO expansion, and calling itself defensive doesn't change that. Besides the threat of direct military conflict and the staging grounds on its borders like the Jupiter Missile crisis, Russia sees its sphere of influence shrinking and economic leverage at risk. And when Russia did invade a country that isn't defended by the NATO alliance, NATO jumped in to half-defend it and take every diplomatic and economic aggressive action against Russia possible short of war. The Russian people aren't being shown love and friendship by the west right now. Its clearly not in Russia's interests to let a hostile alliance take over its buffer territory, Putin or not.