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Feb 9 2022 11:48pm
Quote (Sioux @ 9 Feb 2022 22:33)
Lol you triggered as fuck


https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92333201&f=119&p=604785966
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92333201&f=119&p=604811466

:rofl:

cant even ignore or post normally a goomshill thread pointing out a gruesome killing and how it relates to national politics and sentencing guidelines in criminal casses. you just cry about the geographic location of the event.
no wonder our medical system is trash when leeches like you drain taxpayer funds so you can pretend to play doctor in a subsidized lab that produces no results while you clean petri dishes. and call yourself a 'scientist' garbage waste of lefty privilege lmfao, pathetic..

inb4 your self-loathing, projection-laced, ineffective and stale retort
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Feb 9 2022 11:55pm
Quote (excellence @ Feb 9 2022 09:47pm)
e: double post


thats all you got?

Quote (excellence @ Feb 9 2022 09:48pm)
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92333201&f=119&p=604785966
https://forums.d2jsp.org/topic.php?t=92333201&f=119&p=604811466

:rofl:

cant even ignore or post normally a goomshill thread pointing out a gruesome killing and how it relates to national politics and sentencing guidelines in criminal casses. you just cry about the geographic location of the event.
no wonder our medical system is trash when leeches like you drain taxpayer funds so you can pretend to play doctor in a subsidized lab that produces no results while you clean petri dishes. and call yourself a 'scientist' garbage waste of lefty privilege lmfao, pathetic..

inb4 your self-loathing, projection-laced, ineffective and stale retort


you're just sad man

also Cases*

This post was edited by Sioux on Feb 10 2022 12:01am
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Feb 10 2022 12:20am
we lost quality posters like Duffman and Handcuffs and posters like Thor and kept the spammers. At least there's a lot less reason for people to want to post on PARD now
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Feb 10 2022 12:32am
Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 10 2022 01:20am)
we lost quality posters like Duffman and Handcuffs and posters like Thor and kept the spammers. At least there's a lot less reason for people to want to post on PARD now


We still got you and snipa at least.
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Feb 11 2022 09:28am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Feb 9 2022 09:07pm)
This is a legal and/or philosophical question which is popping up time and time again: at which point does a case of negligent manslaughter become so egregious that it can no longer be discounted as negligence and should be prosecuted as intentional or premeditated?
Reminds me of a recent example where dudes were street racing through Berlin at 150 mph, hit and killed a pedestrian and were then sentenced for third-degree murder, rather than manslaughter, in a widely discussed ruling. The judge argued that engaging in this kind of activity invariably and intentionally puts the life of others at risk.

It's the same argument in this case right here: setting a mixed commercial-residential building on fire without checking that it's empty means that the defendant had consciously accepted the deadly risk of his arson, so that his action can no longer be excused by negligence.
I have to agree, however, that:

third degree murder seems more reasonable according to my layman gut feeling than first degree.




Anyway, I'm of course with Goom on the actual issue: partisan justice, in which prosecutors treats cases differently based on the partisan motivation of a crime, is extremely dangerous and unacceptable. A colorblind judiciary is extremely important for a functioning society, no matter if we're talking about black/white or red/blue.

McConnell and the GOP should not open up the can or worms that is Jan 6th though. When you're trying to claim the moral high-ground on an issue, bringing up a similar issue on which you held the moral low-ground is not helping your case, to put it mildly. :rolleyes:


mob mentality and the mania it creates is often used as a mitigating factor in sentencing, rather than a defense for innocence.

dude is in the middle of a riot and sets a building on fire without checking it's empty first, while the whole town was shut down and businesses therefore weren't open. this is wildly different than if he did so on some random tuesday, without a mob, without a town order for lockdown and business closures.
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Feb 11 2022 09:41am
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 11 2022 09:28am)
mob mentality and the mania it creates is often used as a mitigating factor in sentencing, rather than a defense for innocence.

dude is in the middle of a riot and sets a building on fire without checking it's empty first, while the whole town was shut down and businesses therefore weren't open. this is wildly different than if he did so on some random tuesday, without a mob, without a town order for lockdown and business closures.


Why should this mitigate responsibility instead of amplify it? If you burn a building on a random tuesday, first responders are vastly better equipped to deal with it. There's a better chance of the fire being contained, or people being rescued. And by burning a building in a riot, you're escalating the overall violence and lawlessness in a way that can lead to further imminent violent action. If you burn a liquor store on a random tuesday, its not going to embolden everyone else around to pillage and burn with impunity. Participating in a violent riot should be an enhancement at sentencing, not a mitigating factor. People who engage in lawless action bear a collective responsibility for all the crimes being committed, not just their own, and that should be reflected not in direct criminal liability in charging but rather in the heinousness of those actions at sentencing. And all the moreso when violence is motivated by politics. That's the whole basis for hate crime modifiers. We've long established that enhancements for ideological motive behind a crime do not violate the first amendment like criminalizing ideology itself does. Now I have my problems with that argument, but as long as it stands as law of the land, its only consistent that politically motivated violence should be treated as especially heinous.
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Feb 11 2022 10:00am
Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 11 2022 10:41am)
Why should this mitigate responsibility instead of amplify it? If you burn a building on a random tuesday, first responders are vastly better equipped to deal with it. There's a better chance of the fire being contained, or people being rescued. And by burning a building in a riot, you're escalating the overall violence and lawlessness in a way that can lead to further imminent violent action. If you burn a liquor store on a random tuesday, its not going to embolden everyone else around to pillage and burn with impunity. Participating in a violent riot should be an enhancement at sentencing, not a mitigating factor. People who engage in lawless action bear a collective responsibility for all the crimes being committed, not just their own, and that should be reflected not in direct criminal liability in charging but rather in the heinousness of those actions at sentencing. And all the moreso when violence is motivated by politics. That's the whole basis for hate crime modifiers. We've long established that enhancements for ideological motive behind a crime do not violate the first amendment like criminalizing ideology itself does. Now I have my problems with that argument, but as long as it stands as law of the land, its only consistent that politically motivated violence should be treated as especially heinous.


1. psychology finds that in erratic events humans have a tendency to go blank and primal, doing things they otherwise wouldnt do. people throw rocks at windows, people trample others at the first sign of danger, etc. these things can be crimes, but pretending there isnt a reduction of individual mens rea is absurd.

2. the CRIME is killing someone due to a lit fire, so the lockdown ties directly to the likelihood that someone would or wouldnt be in the business, not the liklihood the fire could be put out. "oh im sorry your honor, i assumed if someone was in there the fire dept would rescue them" would be a funny defense to hear but doesnt hold water.

did he light fire to a building under the assumption it was empty, imo yes, although its arguable he didnt care to a criminally negligent level bordering on intentional action. was he motivated by mob mentality to do what he did, imo yes, and less arguable than the first point. does 10 years in prison sound about right to me for lighting a building on fire and then finding out much MUCH MUCH later it had a person in it, imo yes.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Feb 11 2022 10:02am
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Feb 11 2022 10:18am
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 11 2022 10:00am)
1. psychology finds that in erratic events humans have a tendency to go blank and primal, doing things they otherwise wouldnt do. people throw rocks at windows, people trample others at the first sign of danger, etc. these things can be crimes, but pretending there isnt a reduction of individual mens rea is absurd.

2. the CRIME is killing someone due to a lit fire, so the lockdown ties directly to the likelihood that someone would or wouldnt be in the business, not the liklihood the fire could be put out. "oh im sorry your honor, i assumed if someone was in there the fire dept would rescue them" would be a funny defense to hear but doesnt hold water.

did he light fire to a building under the assumption it was empty, imo yes, although its arguable he didnt care to a criminally negligent level bordering on intentional action. was he motivated by mob mentality to do what he did, imo yes, and less arguable than the first point. does 10 years in prison sound about right to me for lighting a building on fire and then finding out much MUCH MUCH later it had a person in it, imo yes.


I don't find human psychology to mitigate human responsibility. All civilization is premised on humans overcoming their base instincts and limiting their urges so we can coexist without conflict. Do people get riled up by mob mentality? Sure. Are men programmed to want to grab a woman to ram every day? Sure. We don't credit 'sexual emergencies' as mitigation. Part of living in society is that you must suppress the inclination to participate in violent mob action. If you feel like joining a mob of rioters committing arson and looting, then you've made the choice to act like an uncivilized animal, to abdicate that personal responsibility.
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Feb 11 2022 10:40am
Quote (Goomshill @ Feb 11 2022 11:18am)
I don't find human psychology to mitigate human responsibility. All civilization is premised on humans overcoming their base instincts and limiting their urges so we can coexist without conflict. Do people get riled up by mob mentality? Sure. Are men programmed to want to grab a woman to ram every day? Sure. We don't credit 'sexual emergencies' as mitigation. Part of living in society is that you must suppress the inclination to participate in violent mob action. If you feel like joining a mob of rioters committing arson and looting, then you've made the choice to act like an uncivilized animal, to abdicate that personal responsibility.


you seem to like case law, precedent, and the status quo. and yet mob mentality has a long standing in all of these but you say "but i don't like it". the breadth of case law on this doesn't care about your feelers bud. mob mentality does have its place as a mitigating factor on sentencing, and even sometimes in guilt. what's next, we charge people for trampling others to death in a fire because that's not how civilization acts on a polite Tuesday in the park normally? this isnt even the case of mob mentality excusing guilt, nor do i think the defense raised it, im simply applying it to my own opinion on the sentence.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Feb 11 2022 10:40am
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Feb 11 2022 10:55am
Quote (thesnipa @ Feb 11 2022 10:40am)
you seem to like case law, precedent, and the status quo. and yet mob mentality has a long standing in all of these but you say "but i don't like it". the breadth of case law on this doesn't care about your feelers bud. mob mentality does have its place as a mitigating factor on sentencing, and even sometimes in guilt. what's next, we charge people for trampling others to death in a fire because that's not how civilization acts on a polite Tuesday in the park normally? this isnt even the case of mob mentality excusing guilt, nor do i think the defense raised it, im simply applying it to my own opinion on the sentence.


People running from a fire have a reasonable fear for their life that justifies taking dangerous action. People proactively joining a violent riot and engaging in lawless action are not motivated by an immediate threat that justifies their actions.
I don't see deindividuation or herd mentality as mitigating anything, and I don't see any reason for why it should. The idea of social vulnerability or pressure is present in most every crime and every criminal motive. If people didn't have reasons for their actions, they wouldn't be doing them. There's no diffusion of responsibility in regards to the actions of an individual, its not a crime of necessity, or a first offense, or a minor role among co-offenders. Its simply trying to discard personal responsibility. And since combined violent actions of a group of people are more dangerous than the sum of their individual capabilities, the conscious decision to join with others committing wanton violence should be taken as an aggravating factor. Like how in this case, not only was there nobody to put out the fire in the midst of the riots, but the overall damage from the riots was so severe it took months before the rubble could even be cleared away and the ripple on the social fabric of the city has carried on for years to the point we're at this:
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/2509528897868/wcco-s-mike-max-calls-downtown-minneapolis-a-hellhole?noAds=1&_f=app_share&s=a7&share_destination_id=MTcyMzk5MzQ2LTE2NDQzNjYwMDgzOTI=

I say that collective actions are more culpable than individual actions. You bear responsibility for your own conduct as well as those you throw in with.
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