To care about only one's own place in the economic world (plus, potentially, immediate family members) while being indifferent or apathetic about the state of other's and their wellbeing is the immorality of capitalism at work.

Perhaps I should be a little more clear:

I speak of the excessively wealthy that those envy. I don't follow that path.

When I was in poverty, no one was concerned with the state of my wellbeing either. I was left to my own devices to make it better and had no other choice. Why is that expectation OK for some, but not others?

This post was edited by CyrusTheGreat on Jan 26 2022 10:21pm

It is precisely this point, in part, where criticisms of capitalism come into play. Perhaps an economic system in which people wouldn't find themselves in such a situation (or, at least would be less likely to experience such a situation) is better than what capitalism affords?

Ah yes - but, what about the flip side?

I have no oversight as to how high of success I want to achieve and I can lay my head on my pillow at night knowing every dollar I earned came from hard work, determination, studying/learning new skills and not by simply raiding the pockets of others. To me, that's a huge win.

When we put aside those who are unfortunately disabled, or, simply retired, the average able-bodied person (not all, but in most cases) is in poverty because they have no ambition and think unskilled labor should automatically shower money unto them when they did nothing to create/open/maintain the business they signed the papers to work for.

Allowing unambitious people to take from the pockets of others because they feel entitled to it doesn't seem very fair in any economic system to me.

Those same people who think they deserve immediate ownership and control over someone else's business can always assume the risks of a business loan and open their own businesses with no guarantees of success. If they do unfortunately end up failing, they can then deal with the fallout (including all bankruptcy court hearings, etc). The rewards don't come without a risk, and we as employees don't have to deal with any of that.

This post was edited by CyrusTheGreat on Jan 26 2022 10:33pm

Based on your response, I think it's pretty clear that you struggle with sovereignty. It's EVERYONE'S business with a nation's sovereignty is violated. We can't live in a chaotic world...

This argument has never made sense to me, so perhaps you can illuminate something for me: How do we reconcile the fact that a significant percentage of the workforce is "unskilled, minimum wage labor" while advancing the idea that people "should be ambitious"? What would happen should every worker in an "unskilled, minimum wage job", or even a majority of such workers, heed your criticism of their ambition levels and pursue something that would place them higher on the economic ladder?

Bull-fucking-crap. If you truly believed in that, you would also have to support a NATO intervention in Yemen, Kashmir and a dozen places in Africa. We do live in a chaotic world and the U.S. or NATO trying to play the role of the world's policemen causes more harm than good.

If Russia truly invades Ukraine, there will be hefty economic sanctions, particularly by European countries since they are the ones who have a specific interest in deterring border violations in their backyard - but it's not reason enough to start a war with Russia or burn all bridges.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jan 26 2022 10:37pm

Well, sadly, they may have to very soon.

In some of the bigger cities over here, places like McDonalds have automated ordering systems. In addition, they also have the app which removes any need for a cashier. I believe there is also AI in development to completely run a fast food kitchen.

The very simple answer to your question is they get replaced by machines and no longer have any income at all.

The types of jobs we are discussing were created to allow minor kids the ability to learn the workforce and put some cash in their pockets. I have been employed since 14 and I speak from experience. Some of the greatest work ethic I have to-date comes from my experience working at McDonalds in High School.

May I ask what any of this has to do with honing one's skills and advancing one's career?

And what is capitalism's answer or plan for the bolded?

Also, who is to work the jobs we're talking about during high school hours?

"And what is capitalism's answer or plan for the bolded?"

- truthfully, the answer was forced onto them if we are still speaking of fast food. I feel like many don't know this, but a McDonalds location in a lot of cases is the owner's sole location and it's not as egregiously profitable as you think (this was 100% true at the location I worked at as a kid). In all reality, it's basically a small business no different than your local pizzeria, but, they pay a hefty premium as franchisees for the name and higher likelihood of success.

"Also, who is to work the jobs we're talking about during high school hours? "

- when I worked there, those hours were covered mostly by retirees who had built successful careers, didn't need the money, but just got bored sitting home all day. There were also a few people who did it as a secondary part time job. But, I think this does become a bit irrelevant based on what I said above -- if these workers continue to price themselves out of the market, they will end up being replaced by machines.

Do know if that happens, if you think these places are making extreme profits now....... They'll double+ at that point.

This post was edited by CyrusTheGreat on Jan 26 2022 10:50pm