d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Off-Topic > General Chat > Political & Religious Debate > Times When Communism Increased Human Flourishing
Prev13456716Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 33,927
Joined: Oct 9 2008
Gold: 2,528.52
Jul 13 2021 11:09pm
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ Jul 13 2021 08:14pm)
I mean, when you look at "long term" you have to contend with the U.S. actively destabilizing their governments.

It's hard to tell if these systems would have worked in the long term if they were actually left alone.


Wakanda forever!!!!!!!!1!!
Member
Posts: 54,172
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 14 2021 11:02am
Quote (inkanddagger @ 14 Jul 2021 05:04)
USSR: Yes and that collapse and subsequent mass poverty was during the perestroika/capitalism era. Not communism. Post-capitalism.

Venezuela: It improved massively under Chavez. This cannot be disputed at all. The facts only show that it improved under Chavez. Under Maduro, different story. But compare the 1980s to the Chavez years and there's no comparison. It was worse before him.


Their collapse was triggered by a failure of communism, the subsequent capitalism era followed precisely because their communist economic model was no longer sustainable. Had the communist political and social system in these countries somehow survived the economic collapse, their population would have seen just as much mass poverty, or worse, as they did under post-Cold War capitalism.


Venezuela: the seeds for the deterioration under Maduro was laid during the Chavez years, when the country's economy outside of the oil sector was strangled and the capital stock of the oil sector was neglected and left to decline. Both are phenomena that we can observe in almost all instances of communism or socialism.
Member
Posts: 54,172
Joined: May 26 2005
Gold: 4,945.67
Jul 14 2021 11:07am
Quote (NetflixAdaptationWidow @ 14 Jul 2021 02:14)
I mean, when you look at "long term" you have to contend with the U.S. actively destabilizing their governments.

It's hard to tell if these systems would have worked in the long term if they were actually left alone.


Did the US destablize Argentina during the 90s? Did the US force Mao to initiate the Great Leap Forward, which ended with mass starvation and 50m dead? Did the US force the Soviet Union to be aggressive, imperialist dickheads? In my previous post, I very intentionally left out Cuba, Chile and Central America because those are instances where your objection is valid - but it's not a carte blanche counterargument against all criticism of socialism/communism.

This post was edited by Black XistenZ on Jul 14 2021 11:08am
Member
Posts: 34,649
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 273.37
Jul 15 2021 12:14pm
Quote (inkanddagger @ Jul 13 2021 11:04pm)
USSR: Yes and that collapse and subsequent mass poverty was during the perestroika/capitalism era. Not communism. Post-capitalism.

Venezuela: It improved massively under Chavez. This cannot be disputed at all. The facts only show that it improved under Chavez. Under Maduro, different story. But compare the 1980s to the Chavez years and there's no comparison. It was worse before him.


Venezuelan economic growth under Chavez mirrored the rise in the price of crude oil. During his rule, the price of crude oil was the highest it had ever been in the post-WWII era. Despite that, Venezuela racked up consistent deficits during his tenure. While other oil producing nations built vast surpluses, Chavez ran deficits, funded unsustainable social programs, and subsidized imports for the middle class via Venezuela's foreign exchange reserves. His need to extract additional revenue led to him staffing the state oil firm with incompetent cronies, redirecting revenue away from expansion and towards social spending. As a result, Venezuela's oil production actually declined during his tenure, and he is principally responsible for the economic chaos of the Maduro-era.

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/government-budget
https://www.statista.com/statistics/371876/gross-domestic-product-gdp-per-capita-in-venezuela/
https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart
https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/crude-oil-production
Member
Posts: 64,763
Joined: Oct 25 2006
Gold: 0.00
Jul 15 2021 12:20pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 14 2021 12:07pm)
Did the US destablize Argentina during the 90s? Did the US force Mao to initiate the Great Leap Forward, which ended with mass starvation and 50m dead? Did the US force the Soviet Union to be aggressive, imperialist dickheads? In my previous post, I very intentionally left out Cuba, Chile and Central America because those are instances where your objection is valid - but it's not a carte blanche counterargument against all criticism of socialism/communism.


US actively interfered with Argentina, the Soviet union, and China.

You really won't find a left wing government anywhere we didn't actively fuck with.
Member
Posts: 34,649
Joined: Jul 2 2007
Gold: 273.37
Jul 15 2021 12:50pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jul 14 2021 01:07pm)
Did the US destablize Argentina during the 90s? Did the US force Mao to initiate the Great Leap Forward, which ended with mass starvation and 50m dead? Did the US force the Soviet Union to be aggressive, imperialist dickheads? In my previous post, I very intentionally left out Cuba, Chile and Central America because those are instances where your objection is valid - but it's not a carte blanche counterargument against all criticism of socialism/communism.


Communist regimes have typically been autarkic, at least with respect to countries outside their ideological bloc. The complaint that other nations are responsible for the failures of communism, and that its not inherently the fault of communism, doesn't hold up to serious scrutiny.

The United States and the Soviet Union had comparable populations at the end of the Second World War. One would expect that the Soviet Union would grow much faster, because it was in the midst of industrialization, but that never really materialized. Initial growth quickly leveled off, and the United States, despite being significantly more developed to start, continued to grow at a faster rate. China remains a staunch competitor to the West today, and yet it has leveraged its conversion to state capitalism into a dominant position on the world stage. Chinese leadership acknowledged the failures of the Mao era, and recognized that serious growth would only come if they actively emulated Western models, albeit within the confines of strict state control. Economic models in the national sense are tools, and it is indisputable that capitalism is the more effective tool.
Member
Posts: 32,103
Joined: Dec 29 2009
Gold: 0.00
Jul 15 2021 12:54pm
Thread could be titled "Times When Communism Was Properly Defined by Alt-Right Trumpists" and the OP would still be the same.
Member
Posts: 33,927
Joined: Oct 9 2008
Gold: 2,528.52
Jul 15 2021 01:21pm
How is this not locked? Lol
Member
Posts: 61,688
Joined: Mar 14 2006
Gold: 28.77
Jul 15 2021 03:53pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jul 15 2021 11:14am)
Venezuelan economic growth under Chavez mirrored the rise in the price of crude oil. During his rule, the price of crude oil was the highest it had ever been in the post-WWII era. Despite that, Venezuela racked up consistent deficits during his tenure. While other oil producing nations built vast surpluses, Chavez ran deficits, funded unsustainable social programs, and subsidized imports for the middle class via Venezuela's foreign exchange reserves. His need to extract additional revenue led to him staffing the state oil firm with incompetent cronies, redirecting revenue away from expansion and towards social spending. As a result, Venezuela's oil production actually declined during his tenure, and he is principally responsible for the economic chaos of the Maduro-era.

https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/government-budget
https://www.statista.com/statistics/371876/gross-domestic-product-gdp-per-capita-in-venezuela/
https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart
https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/crude-oil-production



You make him sound like Donald Trump.
Member
Posts: 32,103
Joined: Dec 29 2009
Gold: 0.00
Jul 15 2021 04:13pm
Quote (EndlessSky @ Jul 15 2021 02:21pm)
How is this not locked? Lol


You expect moderation? In PaRD? LOL.
Go Back To Political & Religious Debate Topic List
Prev13456716Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll