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Apr 2 2021 01:35am
Quote (Plaguefear @ 2 Apr 2021 00:29)
Is there a table showing where the debt came from? would be interesting.


Something like this? https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296

Or are you referring to "what the money was spent on"? If you want to know about the spending specifics, maybe fiscaldata.treasury.gov along with a host of other tracking sites? Simple overviews aren't very simple.

This post was edited by InsaneBobb on Apr 2 2021 01:38am
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Apr 2 2021 01:36am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Apr 2 2021 06:35pm)
Something like this? https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296

Or are you referring to "what the money was spent on"? If you want to know about the spending specifics, maybe fiscaldate.treasury.gov along with a host of other tracking sites? Simple overviews aren't very simple.


Thats the one i wanted thanks.
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Apr 2 2021 01:40am
massive tax cuts for corporations and billionaires? GQP: yes sure, we'll just pretend it will "trickle down" and lead to a net revenue gain, even though that has never been true and won't be this time.

covid relief and infrastructure spending? GQP: b-b-but the dEfiCiT!!!1!
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Apr 2 2021 01:51am
Quote (fender @ 2 Apr 2021 00:40)
massive tax cuts for corporations and billionaires? GQP: yes sure, we'll just pretend it will "trickle down" and lead to a net revenue gain, even though that has never been true and won't be this time.

covid relief and infrastructure spending? GQP: b-b-but the dEfiCiT!!!1!


High corporate taxes drive businesses out of a nation, and corporate taxes are not a primary source of Tax revenue in the first place.

50% of Federal revenue comes from personal income taxes, with another 36% coming from FICA. Literally 86% of all federal revenue comes from people, not businesses.

The standard viewpoint from the right is that lowering taxes against businesses and incentivizing them to reinvest to expand their business promotes more jobs, which raises the income tax pool. Standard viewpoint from the left these days seems to be if you tax the businesses instead, that somehow businesses will still be able to grow, but federal revenues will go up as well? The math on that never works out. Overall, Republican tax plans tend to be far more functional, which is part of why businesses are fleeing California/Oregon/Washington/New York and moving to Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Tennessee, etc.

Both Dems and Republicans supported covid relief. The difference was that Republicans did not support State Bailouts. The Infrastructure Bill is a concern, because Federal Infrastructure is not a problem. Nearly all Infrastructure that needs funding is at the State level, which means it should be funded by State level taxes. Why should Florida, for instance, who has amazing Infrastructure, be required to pay for infrastructure updates in California? It doesn't make any sense, tbh. And if states like California were the top in up to date infrastructure, and were being required to fund infrastructure in red states, the screaming would be epic.
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Apr 2 2021 01:58am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Apr 2 2021 06:51pm)
High corporate taxes drive businesses out of a nation, and corporate taxes are not a primary source of Tax revenue in the first place.

50% of Federal revenue comes from personal income taxes, with another 36% coming from FICA. Literally 86% of all federal revenue comes from people, not businesses.

The standard viewpoint from the right is that lowering taxes against businesses and incentivizing them to reinvest to expand their business promotes more jobs, which raises the income tax pool. Standard viewpoint from the left these days seems to be if you tax the businesses instead, that somehow businesses will still be able to grow, but federal revenues will go up as well? The math on that never works out. Overall, Republican tax plans tend to be far more functional, which is part of why businesses are fleeing California/Oregon/Washington/New York and moving to Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Tennessee, etc.

Both Dems and Republicans supported covid relief. The difference was that Republicans did not support State Bailouts. The Infrastructure Bill is a concern, because Federal Infrastructure is not a problem. Nearly all Infrastructure that needs funding is at the State level, which means it should be funded by State level taxes. Why should Florida, for instance, who has amazing Infrastructure, be required to pay for infrastructure updates in California? It doesn't make any sense, tbh. And if states like California were the top in up to date infrastructure, and were being required to fund infrastructure in red states, the screaming would be epic.


If you tell that business they need to have a corporate headquarters in your country to do business in your country they have two options, move out and lose millions or do business.
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Apr 2 2021 02:06am
Quote (Plaguefear @ 2 Apr 2021 00:58)
If you tell that business they need to have a corporate headquarters in your country to do business in your country they have two options, move out and lose millions or do business.


Many businesses only bother with corporate headquarters in the US to cut out the middleman, and they only do so due to our incredibly low corporate tax rates.

Any business can do business with the US, the only difference having an HQ in the US makes is that if they don't, they have to do business through a US entity, rather than direct to the customer.

Given the percentage of business that goes through Amazon, Walmart, Target, etc. this is not honestly a huge problem. And large corporations such as these can easily suffer a tax increase. On the flipside, smaller businesses and LLCs that are having to compete against offshore companies that work through Amazon, Walmart, etc. would lose their ability to compete due to higher price points needed to make up for the taxes.
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Apr 2 2021 02:15am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Apr 2 2021 07:06pm)
Many businesses only bother with corporate headquarters in the US to cut out the middleman, and they only do so due to our incredibly low corporate tax rates.

Any business can do business with the US, the only difference having an HQ in the US makes is that if they don't, they have to do business through a US entity, rather than direct to the customer.

Given the percentage of business that goes through Amazon, Walmart, Target, etc. this is not honestly a huge problem. And large corporations such as these can easily suffer a tax increase. On the flipside, smaller businesses and LLCs that are having to compete against offshore companies that work through Amazon, Walmart, etc. would lose their ability to compete due to higher price points needed to make up for the taxes.


I think small business should get huge tax breaks personally.
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Apr 2 2021 02:49am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 2 Apr 2021 09:51)
High corporate taxes drive businesses out of a nation, and corporate taxes are not a primary source of Tax revenue in the first place.

50% of Federal revenue comes from personal income taxes, with another 36% coming from FICA. Literally 86% of all federal revenue comes from people, not businesses.

The standard viewpoint from the right is that lowering taxes against businesses and incentivizing them to reinvest to expand their business promotes more jobs, which raises the income tax pool. Standard viewpoint from the left these days seems to be if you tax the businesses instead, that somehow businesses will still be able to grow, but federal revenues will go up as well? The math on that never works out. Overall, Republican tax plans tend to be far more functional, which is part of why businesses are fleeing California/Oregon/Washington/New York and moving to Arizona, Texas, Alabama, Tennessee, etc.

Both Dems and Republicans supported covid relief. The difference was that Republicans did not support State Bailouts. The Infrastructure Bill is a concern, because Federal Infrastructure is not a problem. Nearly all Infrastructure that needs funding is at the State level, which means it should be funded by State level taxes. Why should Florida, for instance, who has amazing Infrastructure, be required to pay for infrastructure updates in California? It doesn't make any sense, tbh. And if states like California were the top in up to date infrastructure, and were being required to fund infrastructure in red states, the screaming would be epic.


dude, the math has already been done. the tax cuts were a net drain while overwhelmingly benefitting the wealthy and corporations - exactly as predicted: https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2019/11/two-years-later-what-are-economists-saying-about-the-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act
no need for fairy tales anymore, republicans won that fight for their donors and friends. there was no "trickle down" and pay raise, it was stock buybacks and executive bonuses mostly.

concerning covid relief, trump's stimulus package was actually full of pork, while biden's was mostly covid related. acting like republicans opposed it out of fiscal concerns is ridiculous - it was political calculation and donor will.
let's not forget how blatantly they lied about it in order to sell their opposition to republican voters: high profile members of congress, like ted cruz, claimed that undocumented immigrants would receive stimulus checks, although he DEFINITELY KNEW that wasn't true. even a slimeball like cruz wouldn't tell such an egregious and easily debunkable lie if he had a halfway legitimate, justifiable, or principled argument to oppose the biden package, but not trump's porkapalooza.

speaking of transparent excuses: the opposition to an infrastructure package, by trying to paint it as a partisan favour to blue states only, is yet another one of those. republicans know that an infrastructure program is generally incredibly popular with the people, so they do a very trumpian (though he did not invent it ofc, he 'just' escalated it grossly) thing: they try to pit red states against blue states to make republican voters oppose it.
it's also a ridiculous line of argument to begin with if you look at the distribution of federal aid for example - the receiving side has been dominated by traditionally red states for decades, as i'm sure you're well aware.
maybe this is the time for a little reminder: when trump himself talked about infrastructure and how he wants to repair and modernise it, his supporters all cheered for it - he just never put the work in because he didn't really care, he just identified how popular it was...

This post was edited by fender on Apr 2 2021 03:04am
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Apr 2 2021 03:16am
Quote (fender @ 2 Apr 2021 01:49)
dude, the math has already been done. the tax cuts were a net drain while overwhelmingly benefitting the wealthy and corporations - exactly as predicted: https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2019/11/two-years-later-what-are-economists-saying-about-the-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act
no need for fairy tales anymore, republicans won that fight for their donors and friends. there was no "trickle down" and pay raise, it was stock buybacks and executive bonuses mostly.

concerning covid relief, trump's stimulus package was actually full of pork, while biden's was mostly covid related. acting like republicans opposed it out of fiscal concerns is ridiculous - it was political calculation and donor will.
let's not forget how blatantly they lied about it in order to sell their opposition to their voters: high profile members of congress, like ted cruz claimed that undocumented immigrants would receive stimulus checks, even though he KNEW that wasn't true. even someone like cruz wouldn't tell such egregious and easily debunkable lies if he had a legitimate and principled argument to oppose the spending.

speaking of transparent excuses: the opposition to an infrastructure package by trying to paint is as a partisan favour to blue states only, is yet another one of those. republicans know that an infrastructure program is generally incredibly popular with the people, so they do a very trumpian (though he did not invented it ofc, he 'just' escalated it grossly) thing: they try to pit red states against blue states to make republican voters oppose it.
it's also a ridiculous line of argument to begin with if you look at the distribution of federal aid for example - the receiving side has been dominated by traditionally red states for decades, as i'm sure you're well aware.
maybe this is the time for a little reminder: when trump himself talked about infrastructure and how he wants to repair and modernise it, his supporters all cheered for it - he just never put the work in because he didn't really care, he just identified how popular it was...


Why did you bother quoting my post when you didn't bother to address any point in my post?

Feel free to quote as many opinion blogs as you want to try to support your talking points, just don't expect to be taken seriously.

Fact: 50% of all Federal Revenue comes from Personal income tax. 36% of all Federal Revenue comes from FICA tax. So again, that's 86% of Federal Revenue being generated by taxing PEOPLE. Corporate taxes account for a mere 7% of Federal Revenue.

Regarding "Infrastructure" you're great at completely ignoring the point. Federal Level infrastructure in the US is great! The infrastructure problems we have are specifically at the state/county/city level. Those states and counties and cities tax their citizens. Those taxes are what need to fund infrastructure, not Federal taxes. Once again, the appearance of the Infrastructure Bill is nothing more than a redistribution of wealth from some states to other states. The problem? The money doesn't exist. $4.2 Trillion in spending has already been approved this year. That is more than all Federal Revenues combined according to CBO projections. So, what's the issue here? The ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL would be based around 100% deficit spending. AKA it will be a direct addition of $2 Trillion to the Federal Debt. Why? Dunno! Honestly, if Biden wants to get an Infrastructure Bill passed, the only way it'd be reasonable is if lockdowns are over, people are back to work, and it could provide a huge surge to the labor market, and ideally, the bill wouldn't go up for consideration until 2022. As it is now, with half the nation still locked down and millions of businesses unable to conduct business, this is quite possibly the WORST time for an infrastructure bill.
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Apr 2 2021 03:35am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ 2 Apr 2021 11:16)
Why did you bother quoting my post when you didn't bother to address any point in my post?

Feel free to quote as many opinion blogs as you want to try to support your talking points, just don't expect to be taken seriously.

Fact: 50% of all Federal Revenue comes from Personal income tax. 36% of all Federal Revenue comes from FICA tax. So again, that's 86% of Federal Revenue being generated by taxing PEOPLE. Corporate taxes account for a mere 7% of Federal Revenue.

Regarding "Infrastructure" you're great at completely ignoring the point. Federal Level infrastructure in the US is great! The infrastructure problems we have are specifically at the state/county/city level. Those states and counties and cities tax their citizens. Those taxes are what need to fund infrastructure, not Federal taxes. Once again, the appearance of the Infrastructure Bill is nothing more than a redistribution of wealth from some states to other states. The problem? The money doesn't exist. $4.2 Trillion in spending has already been approved this year. That is more than all Federal Revenues combined according to CBO projections. So, what's the issue here? The ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL would be based around 100% deficit spending. AKA it will be a direct addition of $2 Trillion to the Federal Debt. Why? Dunno! Honestly, if Biden wants to get an Infrastructure Bill passed, the only way it'd be reasonable is if lockdowns are over, people are back to work, and it could provide a huge surge to the labor market, and ideally, the bill wouldn't go up for consideration until 2022. As it is now, with half the nation still locked down and millions of businesses unable to conduct business, this is quite possibly the WORST time for an infrastructure bill.


sorry, but your 'discredit the source, so i don't have to deal with the facts and findings' approach is incredibly intellectually lazy and extremely transparent - especially when dealing with a site that is considered extremely unbiased, factual, and serious, and the article in question provides direct links to official reports and studies based on which it arrives at its conclusions, right?

had you taken just a cursory look at it, instead of (correctly) identifying that you don't have a point, so you need some cheap way out, you would have noticed that immediately, lol.

i mean, this is not even a contentious topic amongst economists or anything. i don't even know of any who actually came to the conclusion that trump's tax cuts for corporations and millionaires were a net benefit - the data is just too clear and definitive, lol.
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