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Feb 3 2021 02:47am
Quote (Thor123422 @ 2 Feb 2021 23:25)
So the first thing is that workers are less than 20% of the business cost even in high-labor businesses like fast food. So the whole "pay them $0.25 more an hour would bankrupt you" is not really how these things would go. Amazon for example made 11.59 billion profit in 2019 and has about 800k workers. That means they could afford to pay every worker an addition $7 an hour and still break even, assuming all workers are full time. Walmart could afford an additional ~$60,000 a year per worker. These are just examples to show that even in worker-heavy businesses the companies are not operating on razor thin margins as far as employee pay is concerned. Now consider that labor cost is < 20% of the total cost of these businesses, and you see that they could make up the cost by a less than 20% increase in prices.

The second thing is that increasing minimum wage increases the income of the lowest class of people, who have the greatest propensity to spend. When a Walmart worker gets a raise, most of that raise is spent buying things at Walmart. Increasing pay for the group that is most likely to spend drives demand, which allows more profit from those same companies. So even though they could raise prices to compensate, they don't actually have to because the economy as a whole is doing more business which drives prices down and profits up.

The third thing is that companies already operate with the fewest number of people they can. They don't make a habit of hiring extra people out of the goodness of their hearts, and they don't pay more than they have to. So as long as the person is making you more money than they cost, they will be retained, and in order for that to happen even at some place like McDonalds you would need to raise the minimum wage to probably $30 or more.


Regarding business cost, it doesn't matter what percentage of the business cost workers are. Hence my phrasing of post-overhead less wages. I made it clear I was attempting to make the most simplified example possible. We both understand that business is far FAR more complicated than my oversimplified example. We both understand the impact say the stock exchange would play, globalism, etc. There's far more to unpack in running a massive corporation than a small business.

My point had nothing to do with the corporations. It was a comparison IF the corporation operated the same way as the small business. You keep talking about fast food (corporations) and walmart (corporation) and amazon (corporation). There's nothing in your entire post that really addresses the small business. I gave a prime example of how a massive corporation can afford to pay more, at a lower profit margin, with the... Owner... Raking it in big time AND the company affording to expand massively, as compared to the small business.

The basic problem I had with your prior post wasn't that it "abuses corporations". I think we can both agree that if business up to and including the massive corporations worked as in my example, things would be "better". Instead, the problem comes along when you start talking about the small business specifically. The 20-40-50 employee business can't handle the legitimately slim profit margins they need to work under to compete with the corporations. Why is it when in small towns, 50 year old successful restaurants tend to go out of business within a year of Applebees moving in? I mean, ffs, Applebees? It's not just a better business model, it's a build, tested, tried and true supply chain. Lower operating costs across the board, and product that is, mostly, simply better. The problem is, there are still plenty of small businesses that are the best at what they do, but why would you want to pay $1600 for a leather motorcycle jacket when you can get something warmer and kevlar plated for like $400 from China? The labor intensity of a lot of American work is huge, for not necessarily a "better" product.

And that's where we sit. Pay a Chinaman (or their Muslim Slaves) $.02 a day to produce our shit, or pay us $20/hour minimum wage. Okay, the Corporation will pay the $.02/day. The small business will pay $20/hour. And for that $0.02/day labor charge, 20% labor cost goes down to 2%, and suddenly better processes can be afforded, more automation, and a better product. How long before the best offering your small business can make costs 3x, is half as good, and they all get fired? How long before it doesn't matter what Walmart or Amazon pay, they're the only options, because they're the only companies that truly innovated out from under the environmentalist humanist thumb of the US government?

The corporations aren't necessarily evil. But they'll do business with evil. Remember, it took Presidential edict to stop US companies from doing business with the Nazis, and that edict required a bombing attack on US soil by an enemy navy.

So, your solutions of higher minimum wage and whatnot? Bleed off a bit of the profit from corporations that are abusing foreign slaves. Meanwhile, break the backs of local small business. Meanwhile, you haven't resolved the issue, because in the end, everyone works for either the corporation or the government. Small business is gone, and the corporation has no competition or reason to pay you anything beyond what the government minimally requires. Sound familiar? It's happened before.
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Feb 3 2021 04:31am
Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 3 2021 09:47pm)
Regarding business cost, it doesn't matter what percentage of the business cost workers are. Hence my phrasing of post-overhead less wages. I made it clear I was attempting to make the most simplified example possible. We both understand that business is far FAR more complicated than my oversimplified example. We both understand the impact say the stock exchange would play, globalism, etc. There's far more to unpack in running a massive corporation than a small business.

My point had nothing to do with the corporations. It was a comparison IF the corporation operated the same way as the small business. You keep talking about fast food (corporations) and walmart (corporation) and amazon (corporation). There's nothing in your entire post that really addresses the small business. I gave a prime example of how a massive corporation can afford to pay more, at a lower profit margin, with the... Owner... Raking it in big time AND the company affording to expand massively, as compared to the small business.

The basic problem I had with your prior post wasn't that it "abuses corporations". I think we can both agree that if business up to and including the massive corporations worked as in my example, things would be "better". Instead, the problem comes along when you start talking about the small business specifically. The 20-40-50 employee business can't handle the legitimately slim profit margins they need to work under to compete with the corporations. Why is it when in small towns, 50 year old successful restaurants tend to go out of business within a year of Applebees moving in? I mean, ffs, Applebees? It's not just a better business model, it's a build, tested, tried and true supply chain. Lower operating costs across the board, and product that is, mostly, simply better. The problem is, there are still plenty of small businesses that are the best at what they do, but why would you want to pay $1600 for a leather motorcycle jacket when you can get something warmer and kevlar plated for like $400 from China? The labor intensity of a lot of American work is huge, for not necessarily a "better" product.

And that's where we sit. Pay a Chinaman (or their Muslim Slaves) $.02 a day to produce our shit, or pay us $20/hour minimum wage. Okay, the Corporation will pay the $.02/day. The small business will pay $20/hour. And for that $0.02/day labor charge, 20% labor cost goes down to 2%, and suddenly better processes can be afforded, more automation, and a better product. How long before the best offering your small business can make costs 3x, is half as good, and they all get fired? How long before it doesn't matter what Walmart or Amazon pay, they're the only options, because they're the only companies that truly innovated out from under the environmentalist humanist thumb of the US government?

The corporations aren't necessarily evil. But they'll do business with evil. Remember, it took Presidential edict to stop US companies from doing business with the Nazis, and that edict required a bombing attack on US soil by an enemy navy.

So, your solutions of higher minimum wage and whatnot? Bleed off a bit of the profit from corporations that are abusing foreign slaves. Meanwhile, break the backs of local small business. Meanwhile, you haven't resolved the issue, because in the end, everyone works for either the corporation or the government. Small business is gone, and the corporation has no competition or reason to pay you anything beyond what the government minimally requires. Sound familiar? It's happened before.


Capitalism rewards fast and efficient but undercover of foreign labour/exploitation certain mega corps are able to abuse and gain significant advantages.
Solution? Workers must be paid equivalent compensation as in one's own country and hopefully same health and safety standards.
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Feb 3 2021 04:43am
Quote (addone @ 3 Feb 2021 02:31)
Capitalism rewards fast and efficient but undercover of foreign labour/exploitation certain mega corps are able to abuse and gain significant advantages.
Solution? Workers must be paid equivalent compensation as in one's own country and hopefully same health and safety standards.


Nah. At current rates, we'll see a revival of Corporate Scrip before we'll see any form of nationalism again.

I'm not hopeful, at this point. Trump provided a decent little bump, but nothing worthy of thinking the globalization of business and the marketability of human lives wasn't inevitable.
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Feb 3 2021 12:02pm
Quote (excellence @ Feb 2 2021 08:52pm)
we do have free universal affordable healthcare provided by the government, it was passed in 2009 and signed into law in 2010



Obamacare forces people to participate in a private health insurance market to maximize profit for shareholders of the largest insurance corporations. It also siphons tax dollars out of the economy and into offshore accounts of wealthy private insurance shareholders and owners. It got a couple of things right like protecting people with pre-existing conditions and allowing people to stay covered through their families until 26. Largely this has given liberals reasons to defend a fascist health plan that keeps the rich getting richer. If you want to know why Republicans never mounted any real opposition other than feigned outrage for TV ratings, this is why.
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Feb 3 2021 01:05pm
Quote (inkanddagger @ 3 Feb 2021 13:02)
Obamacare forces people to participate in a private health insurance market to maximize profit for shareholders of the largest insurance corporations. It also siphons tax dollars out of the economy and into offshore accounts of wealthy private insurance shareholders and owners. It got a couple of things right like protecting people with pre-existing conditions and allowing people to stay covered through their families until 26. Largely this has given liberals reasons to defend a fascist health plan that keeps the rich getting richer. If you want to know why Republicans never mounted any real opposition other than feigned outrage for TV ratings, this is why.

mount opposition? free universal affordable healthcare was passed without any need for any Republican votes!
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Feb 3 2021 02:06pm
Quote (theCrossbones @ Feb 3 2021 01:26am)
United States/Population/Median Income
31,133 USD (2019)
way over valuing the life Americans lead


Quote (InsaneBobb @ Feb 3 2021 01:30am)
Source? Census.gov disagrees.



https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html

Maybe go past the google search screen and find a valid source? :)

Edit: For per-worker median earnings:


both <75k though for sure. upsetting more people don't care about it. but oh well, hope it doesn't get embezzled.
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Feb 3 2021 04:41pm
Quote (oRAnGeInAbOx @ Feb 2 2021 02:09pm)
tax in question: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/31/opinion/republicans-biden-taxes.html

so trump raised taxes on those making <75k/year effective at some points during the Biden Admin.

why can't biden or the democratic controlled congress revert this? also why is neither side talking about this? blues hate trump and reds should hate raised taxes.

really wish sanders won, its all just one big establishment built to fuck over the common person or is there something im misunderstanding?


Sanders doesn't possess the intellectual capital to reverse this. He would make things demonstrably worse.
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Feb 3 2021 04:46pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Feb 3 2021 06:41pm)
Sanders doesn't possess the intellectual capital to reverse this. He would make things demonstrably worse.


well sanders couldve never been born and my concerns would still be the same. why is it that red and blue are letting this happen? they both pump out narratives that seem like they'd be against it. but on the hushhush they rob us in unison
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Feb 3 2021 04:54pm
Quote (Thor123422 @ Feb 3 2021 02:25am)
So the first thing is that workers are less than 20% of the business cost even in high-labor businesses like fast food. So the whole "pay them $0.25 more an hour would bankrupt you" is not really how these things would go. Amazon for example made 11.59 billion profit in 2019 and has about 800k workers. That means they could afford to pay every worker an addition $7 an hour and still break even, assuming all workers are full time. Walmart could afford an additional ~$60,000 a year per worker. These are just examples to show that even in worker-heavy businesses the companies are not operating on razor thin margins as far as employee pay is concerned. Now consider that labor cost is < 20% of the total cost of these businesses, and you see that they could make up the cost by a less than 20% increase in prices.

The second thing is that increasing minimum wage increases the income of the lowest class of people, who have the greatest propensity to spend. When a Walmart worker gets a raise, most of that raise is spent buying things at Walmart. Increasing pay for the group that is most likely to spend drives demand, which allows more profit from those same companies. So even though they could raise prices to compensate, they don't actually have to because the economy as a whole is doing more business which drives prices down and profits up.

The third thing is that companies already operate with the fewest number of people they can. They don't make a habit of hiring extra people out of the goodness of their hearts, and they don't pay more than they have to. So as long as the person is making you more money than they cost, they will be retained, and in order for that to happen even at some place like McDonalds you would need to raise the minimum wage to probably $30 or more.


The margin on fast-food is relatively low. There is also an opportunity cost and risk profile for capital, if franchises can make better money investing in 10 yr bonds or medium-risk dividend stocks, they will do so. So it's not a question of "They still made $1, so it's ok", it's not ok. If they aren't making competitive ROI, they will move elsewhere.

Amazon's growth model is fueled by reinvestment. They obviously could simply pay out all proceeds equally to staff, and they would quickly fall out of relevancy. The intellectual capital running Amazon would leave, and the company would fail. At the end of the day, companies reward employees (especially high-value ones) for a reason. Amazon's low-paid warehouse staff are almost obsolete. They are easily replaced. This is economics.

As an aside, companies often don't operate at minimum capacity. It's a lot more complex than that. I have seen managers push for additional staff as a matter of politics, because they thought it would decrease the odds that they were fired, or just to give themselves a slightly easier job. Companies are not monoliths. They're comprised of people who have complex motivations.
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Feb 3 2021 05:03pm
Quote (oRAnGeInAbOx @ Feb 3 2021 05:46pm)
well sanders couldve never been born and my concerns would still be the same. why is it that red and blue are letting this happen? they both pump out narratives that seem like they'd be against it. but on the hushhush they rob us in unison


Because the interests they're protecting are intelligent and powerful. The powers that be are smarter than your average Joe; they're well informed on how to use institutional power to their advantage. The problem is that they're largely competent, and they don't levy too high of a tax for their services. It would be nice to eliminate all of the graft, but if we let Bernie Sanders run things he'd run it quickly into the ground.
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